anabolic frolic

Two deaths connected to PNE rave
Police warn about dangers of taking drugs


Global BC


Monday, October 29, 2001



VANCOUVER -- Two people are dead following a weekend rave in Vancouver.

The all-night party happened on the PNE grounds on Saturday night.

A 17-year-old male died after taking several hits of the popular rave drug ecstacy.

On Sunday, a 24-year-old woman died after taking a drug that has not yet been identified.

Police are cautioning users only 20 per cent of ecstacy sold is in fact that particular drug.

"The other types of drugs that are being sold as (ecstacy) are MDA, PCP (angel dust), LSD, ketamine and others," said Vancouver police spokesperson Det. Scott Driemel. "A lot of poisonous chemicals are used in the production of these drugs."

Vancouver police officers were keeping an eye on the party, but with 4500 people in attendance, Driemel said it was impossible for them to stop everyone from taking drugs.

The names of the victims have not been released.

Last week, a Victoria man who used the cartoon monkey Curious George to market the rave drug GHB was sentenced to six months in jail.

Christopher Anderson Bridgen had already served four months awaiting sentence for GHB and cocaine possession.

Bridgen used T-shirts with a grinning Curious George flat on his back beside a large, uncapped bottle, marked GHB.

© Copyright 2001 Global BC + Vancouver Province

Rainbow Brit-E

Did they die from the E or from dehydration? Did they mix it with things? This makes it sound like they OD'ed.... poor people. Well everyone be careful if u are gonna take stuff @ parties and make sure ppl are watching u and lots of water (not that u don't know that, but obviously some don't). Sober raving isn't bad... I've done it b4.... it's your choice but we don't want to lose members of our raver family

__________________
or Brite

anabolic frolic

Probably not much is known except that they were on SOMETHING. Unless the police get accurate first hand info from a friend or something they may never know. An autopsy will be inconclusive. There's no magical test to check for all types of drugs. They have to test for specific substances (ie: cocaine, heroin, mdma), so if the pills had something wierd in them in may never be known. They also can't tell how much was consumed or when. All they can do is test to see if something registers in the blood.

limey

Was this Spooky 6? I know some ppl that were at that party.

stargurl

Rest in peace.

anabolic frolic

it was the "Spooky" rave.

anabolic frolic

Ecstasy kills 2 at rave


Mark Wilson and Steve Berry
The Province


Tuesday, October 30, 2001

(ECSTACY: CLEAR PHYSICAL DANGER: The illegal drug ecstacy has dangerous effects on the body)


Lethal doses of the drug ecstasy may be circulating in the Lower Mainland, B.C.'s chief coroner Terry Smith warned yesterday.

He advised anyone who bought the drug recently to flush it away or turn it in.

Smith issued the warning after the overdose deaths of two young people who attended a monster rave at the PNE's Pacific Coliseum on the weekend. Police believe one or both took ecstasy.

A 17-year-old male died at the PNE and a 24-year-old woman died later in hospital. Names were not released.

Smith said his office has identified five other deaths linked to ecstasy since 1998.

"Matched against this pattern, two deaths after one event is definitely a spike," Smith said. "There may be a drug out there that is particularly lethal and we want to get it off the streets."

Smith is asking people who have the drug to drop it off at a pharmacy. "They don't have to say who they bought it from, but we would like to know if they bought it at the PNE rave.

Vancouver police spokesman Det. Scott Driemel said the 17-year-old apparently believed he was taking ecstasy but it will take toxicological tests to determine what he actually ingested as some other drugs are passed off as ecstasy. It is not known what the 24-year-old woman overdosed on.

Amphetamines were found in the blood of one victim.

There are believed to be 70 illegal drug laboratories in the Lower Mainland and some of them are producing ecstasy, said Vancouver police Insp. Kash Heed.

RCMP Cpl. Scott Rintoul said ecstacy is the drug of choice among rave goers, but users don't know what they're getting when they buy it. Seventy-five per cent of the ecstasy sold is either cut with another drug or has no ecstasy in it at all, he said.

Police are finding the drug cut with caffeine, ephedrine, methamphetamine, PCP, ketamine (a veterinarian drug), MDA and heroin, said

Rintoul, an expert on the rave and drug scene.

He said users often take other drugs to stay high or to buffer the harsh landing when they come off ecstacy. Some are using powerful anti-depressants as well.

"These poly-drug using patterns have become so fashionable that it's now termed 'flipping,' " he said. "We're dealing with some very dangerous substances, where a single dose can kill you."

Rintoul said raves are not the problem. "The point here is that drugs are bad."

The weekend rave was the fifth at the Coliseum in the past 18 months and the largest to date, drawing 4,600 young people who paid $40 each for advance tickets and $80 at the door.

The PNE grosses about $25,000 from raves and it is the organizers who pay for security. The organizer of the weekend event was Swing Kids Entertainment of Vancouver, which paid for 95 security guards, 15 off-duty Vancouver police officers and eight first-aid attendants.

mwilson@pacpress.southam.ca

sberry@pacpress.southam.ca

© Copyright 2001 The Province

anabolic frolic

Tainted ecstacy believed cause of two ravers' deaths
'Extremely uncommon' incident at Vancouver event brings bad-drug warning to public

Chad Skelton
Vancouver Sun


Tuesday, October 30, 2001

Courtesy BCTV / Ravers at dance party held Saturday night and Sunday morning at the Pacific Coliseum. Two young people fell ill and later died.


There may be a batch of deadly ecstasy for sale in Vancouver, B.C.'s chief coroner warns.

Terry Smith issued the warning after two people died from apparently taking the illegal drug at a rave early Sunday morning.

While toxicology tests still must be done on the two victims to determine what drugs were in their systems, Smith said the deaths are alarming because ecstasy overdoses in B.C. are rare.

"There have been quite a few documented medical and health problems from the use of ecstasy," Smith said. "But we only have five other documented deaths over the last three years."

There were three ecstasy overdoses in B.C. in 1998 but only one each in 1999 and 2000.

"It's extremely uncommon to have two deaths happen this quickly back to back," Smith said.

He said the two victims appeared to suffer the symptoms of overdose -- including severe breathing difficulty -- relatively quickly after taking the drug, which further suggests the victims may have taken contaminated pills.

Ecstasy, also known as MDMA, is a synthetic chemical with stimulant and hallucinogenic properties -- usually giving the user a feeling of euphoria. It was developed in 1912 as an appetite suppressant, but has become popular in recent years as a recreational drug at all-night dance parties.

Ecstasy's biggest health risk is a dramatic increase in the user's heart rate. Those who take too much or have heart conditions can suffer heart failure and die.

The two victims, whose names have not been released, were attending an all-night rave at the Pacific Coliseum dubbed "Spooky 6."

About 4,500 people paid $35 to $80 to attend the event, which ran from 10 p.m. Saturday to 7 a.m. Sunday.

The first victim, a 24-year-old woman, was sent to hospital at about 3:30 a.m. while the second, a 17-year-old male, was taken to hospital at about 5 a.m.

Laura Balance, a spokeswoman for the Pacific National Exhibition, said the two victims were conscious and could speak when they were brought into the first aid centre. After an assessment by the head of first aid, the two were taken by ambulance to hospital, where they later died.

The event organizers, Swing Kids Entertainment, had a permit from the city of Vancouver to hold the event.

Fourteen police officers attended at the promoter's expense, along with 95 security guards and eight trained first-aid staff.

Balance said security at the event was tight. "They did a full-body search -- a very extensive patdown -- on every single person that entered the venue."

Noting this was the fifth rave-type event held at the Pacific Coliseum, she said the most serious medical problem in the past has been dehydration resulting from people dancing too long.

"It's a very, very unfortunate thing that's happened. It's been quite a shock," she said.

Several calls to the head of Swing Kids, Salim Lakhani, were not returned Monday.

While Swing Kids had a permit to operate Saturday night's rave, the company has been in hot water before. In May 1999, it failed to get a permit for an all-night rave at the Plaza of Nations. At the time, police said organizers had left their application to the last minute and did not have proper security in place.

For the past two years, Vancouver has issued permits for all-night raves, becoming one of the few cities in Western Canada that regulates such events.

Many cities have no formal process for regulating raves while others, such as New Westminster and Surrey, have banned them.

Under the city's application process, which takes about six weeks, rave organizers must provide the city with detailed fire safety, security and first-aid plans and pay fees ranging from $200 for an event with fewer than 350 people to $800 for events with more than 2,000.

Event organizers also have to pay for policing of their event and for a fire marshal to be on site. Alcohol is banned.

"In my opinion, it's worked fairly well up to this point," said Paul Teichroeb, chief licence inspector for the city. "The main thrust of the process was to try to deal with the illegal venues operating and try to minimize the risks."

The Vancouver police department says it will review its support for legal raves as a result of the weekend deaths.

"This thing fell within all the legal hurdles," said police spokesman Detective Scott Driemel. "[But] whenever there's an incident at any public function, we have to review it."

Police say very little of the ecstasy sold in Vancouver is the real thing.

Corporal Scott Rintoul of the RCMP's drug awareness section, said his department randomly tested 300 doses of ecstasy seized in Greater Vancouver over this past summer and found only 25 per cent of the pills were pure ecstasy.

Another 22 per cent were a combination of ecstasy and some other drug ( PCP or cough suppressant among others) while most of the pills being sold as ecstasy -- 53 per cent -- contained no ecstasy at all.

Rintoul said 10 per cent of the pills tested were pure ketamine -- a veterinary anesthetic used in animal surgery.

Mark Paul Krakus, a 19-year-old DJ, said he attended the Spooky 6 rave for free because his twin brother was working there as a DJ.

Krakus said most regular ravers avoid events like Spooky -- known as "massives" -- because they attract people who are not regulars on the scene.

"The people that pay to go to that -- they're chumps," Krakus said. "It's really overpriced."

Krakus said he doesn't use drugs himself, but he believes illegal raves are safer because participants usually know who they're buying drugs from.

But "at that kind of [large] event, a lot of people will buy off people they don't know -- and that's not good," he said.

Ken Tupper, a grad student at Simon Fraser University's education faculty, used to volunteer with a group called DanceSafe, which offered testing of party drugs at all-night raves.

He said in an interview Monday the group stopped offering the service because of pressure from Vancouver police. The group then fell apart, he said.

DanceSafe, affiliated with a U.S.-based organization of the same name, offered basic tests to determine if a pill contained MDMA, the key ingredient in ecstasy, said Tupper. While the test could tell if a pill contained the drug, he said, it did not show if the pill also contained other substances.

Now Tupper and two other volunteers are trying to resume the service with a new group called mindbodylove. Tupper said the group met last month with Vancouver Mayor Philip Owen and the city's drug policy coordinator, Donald MacPherson. He said both offered positive words.

He said the group wants to offer an outreach program that would test pills, as well as an education program for parents and teachers. The group could buy a sophisticated drug-testing tool for $15,000 that it could take to raves, he said.

He said opposition to such programs is short-sighted, comparing it to opposition to putting condom machines in schools. "It's like before the AIDS crisis, condoms in school bathrooms were a problem. After people started dying, they weren't a problem."

There have been some signs that the rave scene in B.C. has begun to fizzle.

Summer Love, held last August near Abbotsford, drew only 6,000 people -- far below the 10,000 organizers needed to break even.

But use of ecstasy has continued to grow, Rintoul said, with ecstasy increasingly showing up at night clubs and house parties.

"The rave scene is dying," he said. "But the drugs aren't."

© Copyright 2001 Vancouver Sun

Rainbow Brit-E

This is so sad I hope everyone in BC turns in whatever they bought @ the rave... it's only $20 and hopefully ppl's lives will be saved because of it!
I think this article was fair, it wasn't as biased as some I've seen.
I hope the familes of these 2 people will be ok... and I hope everyone will be extra careful

Rainbow Brit-E

The rave scene isn't dying, it's just not as publicized now!!!!
Boo to them.
And these aren't just drugs that ppl take @ raves. Grrrrrr, well at least for the ppl who want raving not to be mainstream... it's happening... 'cuz whoever said that the scene is dying probably didn't know it exsisted before "GO" came out

CONCEPT

Ya I attended spooky six, my first big party since leaving the party scene in TO. The party itself was great, music kicked ass. The weird thing about the hearing about the 2 deaths was that no one knew about it till after the party. I didn't even know about them until the evening news the next day. Everyone I had talked to about didn't know anything about it either. The place it was held at looked like a sports arena, had the stands and everything. I have a feelin that the people that died may have passed out in the stands and no one knew about them until the party was over. No one likes seeing things like that happen. but what can ya do?

Laterz

~Melissa~

__________________
Each new hour holds new tangents and new beginings, the horizon leans forward and offers space to place new steps of change.

CONCEPT

hey the post above was my roomates using my ID
but it wasnt like ot other parties where someone ods adn everyone knows in a few minutes. it was nuts but there were alot of ppl really high at that party too.
so all I can say is know what your taking... also most pill pusher I was talking w/ wernt sellng many at the party since almost everyone had picked up before (of those of up who do drugs) so the who thing is really questionable.
I dunno all I can say is there needs to be a push for more pill testing.
peace
Mike ( the real concept !
silly melissa using my name in vain)

anabolic frolic

'Good kid' made a mistake
Khanh Vo succumbed to 'the pressure' to take ecstasy

Chris Nuttall-Smith
Vancouver Sun


Thursday, November 01, 2001

Khanh Vo's memory lives in a shrine in his heart-sick family's east Vancouver living room, in a half-dozen photos flanked by a bowl of fruit and some congee made by his mother, with incense and Halloween candy and an orange-beaded bracelet he wore to the rave last weekend.

Khanh's sister Laura, 22, says she is being strong, that her family needs her that way.

She speaks of her 16-year-old brother in the present still, as if he did not die in a Burnaby hospital Sunday morning. She wants people to know her family is a good family, her brother is a good boy, her brother does not go to many raves. Her brother does not do drugs.

But on Saturday, Khanh went out against his parents' will.

He promised to be home early.

"There were 4,500 kids there and I bet you every single one dropped ecstasy," Laura says. "The pressure's so much."

The next day, around 5 a.m., Khanh was taken to Burnaby Hospital. The hospital called at 7:05 that morning. When Laura arrived, a doctor told her that her brother had overdosed on ecstasy. Just after 7 a.m., the doctor told her, he had died.

Khanh's friends later told Laura they had gone to the rave, called Spooky-6, and that Khanh had taken a hit of ecstasy. When nothing happened, he took more. All told, Laura says, Khanh took about four pills.

He was one of two people who died after the rave at the Pacific National Exhibition. A 24-year-old woman, whose name has not yet been released, also died. B.C. chief coroner Terry Smith warned the public Monday that the deaths might have been caused by a bad batch of ecstasy and that anyone who bought the drug recently should destroy it or turn it in to authorities.

Full toxicology reports on the two victims will not be completed for about two weeks, Smith said.

But as long as there are raves, Laura Vo says, kids -- good kids -- will overdose and die.

"Honestly, I want to make raves to be illegal in all of Canada," she says. "Make them illegal. I don't want to see another family whose kid passes away because of a stupid thing like this."

The photos show Khanh as a little boy in a striped red jersey, crowding over a Black Forest cake with eight candles. They show him a little older, with a bundle of balloons, and older still in a portrait with his shiny black hair parted down the middle.

In the largest picture, taken this year at school, his hair is short on the sides and spiky with bleach blond ends. He wears a black v-neck T-shirt and the same self-conscious smile that thousands of high-school boys get on picture day.

Khanh's family moved from Vietnam when he was six. His father and mother, Cuong and Chieu Vo, sent him to Charles Dickens elementary school. For eighth grade, he went to John Oliver. He attended there until last year, when he transferred to an alternative program, principal Ian McKay said Wednesday.

This year, he registered closer to home, at Sir Charles Tupper.

On Monday at lunch, the school announced over its public address system that a student had passed away on the weekend. On Tuesday morning, teachers read a typed message to their students, saying that Khanh Vo had died.

The teachers read a similar message at John Oliver, said McKay, the principal. "A lot of weeping kids on Monday," McKay said.

He said some 60 students plan to attend Khanh's funeral today. Counsellors from the school will also attend, McKay said.

In the Vos' living room, a soap opera plays quietly on the television, though no one watches. Someone has kicked over a glass of water on the carpet. Khanh's mother does not come out -- she cannot hear her son's name without weeping. Khanh's father walks in carrying a garbage bag. His eyes look downward at the carpet and he shuffles out of the room.

Khanh's seven-year-old brother keeps quiet, mostly. He looks just like his big brother. Khanh used to cut his hair. His mother can hardly look at the little boy, so much does he resemble his brother.

Laura Vo says Khanh loved coconut juice and mangos and guavas. He is a good boy, she says. He has good manners. They are a good family. She would have said that even before he passed away, she says.

Her mother still wants Khanh to return from school. His backpack waits by the door with his sneakers and a white ballcap branded with a swoosh.

His family is trying to be strong.

cnuttall-smith@pacpress.southam.ca

© Copyright 2001 Vancouver Sun

anabolic frolic

I've been following the Vancouver story with great interest when comparing it to our own scene here.

Obviously that above article is very similar to the kind of sensational reporting we've seen here at times. I was amazed how relatively balanced those first articles were however.

It's interesting to see the debate on BC message boards. The typical promoter bashing is happening, as are the typical "how does this affect ME?" posts.

I have to wonder if more drug education could have prevented a death like this. His own friends admitted he took "about 4 pills", and I can only be cynical in thinking that that is a low number when the word "about" is being used. Obviously little respect or care was being shown treating the pills as little more than candy or something.

From what I understand (it may have been in one of the first articles), the local Dancesafe had been disbanded so there's probably very little front-line education happening.

Rainbow Brit-E

I like the fact that she blames raves and not the fact her brother took 4 fucking hits!!! This kid has obviously done E before and for her to blame it all on "peer pressure" is bullshit. People rave sober and he could have to. And I hope the promoters arne't taking the flaque... I mean they don't hand out E at the door, it is a choice.
If this would have happend @ a bar or house party would she want them to be made illegal? I know she is grieving but she is also ignorant.

Question to Anabolic..... THis dancesafe comittee testing pills...and now mindbodylove?!?!? COuld we have get anything like that in TO? I don't think it necessarily promotes drugs but it could prevent A LOT of OD's and other shit. I know the TO police may flip but have u ever looked into it for Hulla's?

anabolic frolic

TRIP looked into that but theres no way the police would tolerate that here. I also don't personally feel that those do-it-yourself kits are all that effective because they cant tell you if theres bad stuff mixed in the pill.

Kim from TRIP also looked into some kind of service where she would bring in pills to the RCMP lab for analysis so the results could be made public but they couldn't guarantee she wouldn't be arrested walking into the building.

Like I said before, I think the best defense is just plain old education.

RoB-B

some one smack this girl
what the fuck does she know

__________________
http://baselinestudios.com/new_toplogo.gif

limey

This kid took 4 pills. Not to sound cold hearted or anything but he's an idiot. It was probably his first time on e aswell so he woulda had NO tolerance.

The point is if some1 cant excersize any self contol, then sooner or later theyre going to be making a trip to the emergency room. Its a shame some ppl take their bodies for granted and dont take these things as seriously as they should.

Sketch Pad JohnE

Are you for real?
The woman made just lost her little brother and shes lashing out in anger. Of course shes going to be irrational, and I think she has a right to be.

Did you expect her to say "Well, as much as I'm in agony about the sudden death of my younger brother, I've done a bit of research about raves and I've found that they seem to be pretty sound, and it was said brother's own fault."
Don't be a tit.

__________________
-John

Sketch Pad JohnE

An incident like this just highlights the need for drug education.
There is a responsibilty on the user to know what they are getting into, but obviously not everyone is going to do that.
Therefore, sad as it is, you have to force the knowledge down people's throats so that everyone who even thinks about going to a rave knows that taken 3 more pills if your's doesnt work is a STUPID idea.
Ignorance is no excuse, but really, most of these people just don't know.

anabolic frolic

Bad ecstasy killed ravers tests show


The Province


B.C.'s chief coroner confirmed yesterday that the two rave partygoers who died nine days ago ingested bad ecstasy.

Chief coroner Terry Smith said the preliminary results of the toxicology tests taken show Khanh Vo, 16, and an unidentified 24-year-old woman died from a form of ecstasy that was poorly manufactured.

Smith again asked that anyone who has recently bought ecstasy to dispose of it or turn it in.

Following the monster rave at the PNE's Pacific Coliseum on Oct. 28, the two died the next morning.

Ecstasy, X or E, is methylenedioxymethamphetamine or MDMA, a diet drug that gives a feeling of well-being and emotional sensitivity in controlled doses. In larger doses it can cause fatal heart attacks or brain hemorrhages.

© Copyright 2001 The Province

anabolic frolic

From Letters to the Editor...


Raves are safe

Nadine Hawryluk
The Province


Tuesday, November 06, 2001


I am really getting tired of the reports on the rave scene.

The two people who died from a "lethal batch" of ecstacy recently probably overdosed -- meaning they took too much.

Ecstacy doesn't kill people, stupidity does.

Anyone who mixes drugs or takes well over one capsule or tablet puts their life in jeopardy.

More often than not it seems these points are buried, and these stories give the rave scene a bad reputation.

In reality, raves are safe and enjoyable gatherings for those who know where to draw the line -- whether they choose to take drugs or not.

Nadine Hawryluk,

Richmond

anabolic frolic

Young mother died from 'bad' ecstasy
24-year-old Regina woman died while on vacation in Vancouver

Patricia Bailey
Vancouver Sun


Wednesday, November 07, 2001



Thi-Tung Nguyen, 24, died after taking ecstasy at a rave in Vancouver October 28, 2001. (Undated family photo - Vancouver Sun)



The 24-year-old woman who died after taking what B.C.'s chief coroner has confirmed was "bad" ecstasy at a Vancouver rave last month lived in Regina and is the mother of a two-and-a-half-year-old boy.

"She went up to Vancouver for a vacation, that was all," said her distraught brother, Steve Nguyen, 22, a cook at the family's Regina restaurant, the Vietnamese Garden.

"She doesn't know anything about drugs. I don't think she even knew what ecstasy was or had even seen the drug before," he said in a telephone interview.

Thi-Tung Nguyen was the family's only daughter and lived at home with her parents and small son, Tyler.

She came to Vancouver for the weekend and died in Vancouver General Hospital on Sunday, Oct. 28, after taking ecstasy at a rave at the Pacific Coliseum the preceding Saturday night.

Chief coroner Terry Smith doesn't know how much of the drug Nguyen ingested, but said toxicology results released Tuesday showed it was a "bad batch."

A 16-year-old Vancouver youth, Khanh Vo, also died after taking the drug.

Steve Nguyen said his sister didn't know the youth.

Steve said Thi-Tung was staying with friends in Vancouver that he had never met. He is certain his sister had never been to a rave or used the drug before, "but to tell you the truth, I have no idea what happened."

Steve said the family was expecting his sister back Sunday morning when they received a call from Thi-Tung's 28-year-old uncle, who lives in Vancouver.

Steve, his parents, and brother left the restaurant where they spend most of their waking hours and flew to Vancouver to be at Thi-Tung's bedside.

"When we got there, we had already come to terms with the fact that she was brain dead. But we still kept up hope that she would wake up. We were trying to talk to her," he said.

The family arrived at the hospital at 6 p.m. on Oct. 28. At 10:30 p.m., Thi-Tung was pronounced dead.

Steve said his parents and grandparents -- all of whom live in Regina -- still can't believe his sister is dead.

His grandparents were so devastated by the loss that they convinced Thi-Tung's 28-year-old uncle to come back to Regina from Vancouver: "My grandparents are afraid it's going to happen to him too, so they moved him back here."

Thi-Tung -- who was studying to be a computer technician at a Regina college -- was born in Vietnam and came to Canada with her two brothers and parents in 1992. Her brother described his sister as someone who was "very fun to be around and very friendly."

Thi-Tung married three years ago but was separated from her husband. After her death, her son moved to live with her former husband's family.

Steve said his family desperately wants to keep the connection with her son. "I think his dad is going to look after him, but we want some time with the baby ... We look at him as our own.

The family had a Buddhist service for Nguyen in Regina on Nov. 4.

In addition to the two deaths on Oct. 28, a third suspected ecstasy overdose in southern B.C. occurred on Nov. 1, when a 21-year-old Vancouver woman collapsed outside the Sugar Night Club in Victoria at 4:30 a.m. She is now in hospital.

Until these most recent cases, the coroner's office had linked three deaths in British Columbia to ecstasy, and another two to MDA, a different drug from the same family as ecstasy.

On Tuesday, the chief coroner renewed his call for anyone in possession of ecstacy to dispose of it in a safe manner.

© Copyright2001 Vancouver Sun

Rainbow Brit-E

YAy her.... at least someone said something in defense to this. I mean it's REALLY sad someone died but the rave or the people at the rave did not kill him. He chose to take that much, and he suffered. Not to sound insensitive but raves are fun and safe if u can draw the line with your use. I wish it would have been a longer response but they probably wouldn't have printed it....