anabolic frolic

This is a long read but i think very important.

The End of big parties in Toronto? Economics of the rave scene.


There's been a lot of debate recently over the lack of big events in what was the capital of raves in North America - Toronto. What happened, and why did they stop? No Freakin this year? No big Hullas? Where did everyone go?

I want to share my findings with the scene and open up some discussion.

Throwing a large party is an expensive proposition - and as it has turned out, prohibitivly so. I was gearing up to make a move on throwing Hulla's long delayed anniversary party, but found that I COULD NOT MAKE IT WORK.

The projected Budget for Funtopia 4 came in at $74 000. That is what it will take to throw an event at the level we would want to see it happen. And that isn't with any extra frills, but it would be at the level Hulla's are known for.

Where does this money go? I'll tell you. This budget is relevent only to Hullabaloo, I can't speak for other promoters, but I'd imagine it's in the ballpark. I'm not going to provide an exact breakdown, but here are the expenses:

Venue rental (the docks)
electrician for day of install
lighting and av man for inhouse system the night of
damage deposit
cleanup
pst & gst and above.
Additional sound and lighting for main room
entire 2nd room sound and lights
team of av techs for stage and 2nd room
laser
high profile secuity
barricades for crowd/line
pay duty police
pay duty ambulance
on-site EMS
talent-
2 UK hardcore DJS
2 UK trance DJS
1 UK MC
flights, wages, work visas, hotels for above
15 local DJs and MCs
support staff
flyer printing
flyer design
flyer distribution (postage and flyer people)
magazine ads
printing tickets
car rental for myself the week of
gas
taxi cabs
long distance phone calls
decorations
whistles & other giveaways
misc expenses
credit card/finance charges
liability insurance
5% commision for ticketmaster + setup fee
10% Provincial entertainment tax included in all tickets
8% GST included in all tickets

Those last 2 are the real kicker, as this is an uneven playing ground that hurts larger promotions. a ticket with a $30 face value is actually worth $25.42 to the promoter. Smaller promoters get away with operating as a cash business underneath government radar so they can keep that money, but a large promoter can't avoid it.

This also doesn't cover corporate/income taxes if there was actually a profit to be made. And these numbers dont take into account other non-party related expenses, such as my legal bills, website, and other hulla related overhead.

$74 000 / $25.42 = a break even of 2911 people! Remember, thats at a $30 face value ticket. The Docks can only hold 2500 legally. And most people complain about it being too crowded and we've never gone over that legal limit. If you wanted to add a tent add another $10 000 to the expenses ($5k for tent and $5k to heat it during the winter). If you showed up with this as your business plan in a school business course they would flunk you out.

Can the budget be cut back? Well, you COULD shave some money off by ditching DJ names and bringing in some ghetto "headliners", but that would affect the overall value of the party. We don't have Oakenfold playing for us. These are reasonably priced DJs. There's no where on the venue to cut back, and it would be foolish to take money out of the promotions budget. Sure the police charge a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things, that alone isn't making or breaking it. Some might say we should look for new venues. Well, we have. There are none. Not legal anyways. And if you look at cities everywhere, Toronto is not very unique in the fact that there are only a few well used venues available.

The fact is - This is what it takes to throw an event at this level.

Has it always been like this? Well, it's been coming. Hulla hasn't made a profit since 1999 and has been subsidized by my DJ career. If it weren't for that, you'd probably see no Hullas ever. Even our little parties can't break even, we lost $1000 on our idance party. Things were easier in 99 since we had very big venues available and were throwing parties for approx 4000 people, so the "economies of scale" rule would help us break even. Fast forward a year and our attendance numbers are cut in half, yet all expenses remain the same or increase.

So where else do we look? Ticket prices. Toronto has had insanely low ticket prices for years. Compare them to ANYWHERE and you'll see. Average larger events in the US will run $30-$40 USD (or more for the mega ones). Slammin Vinyl in the UK charges 23.50 POUNDS ($53 Canadian) and as impressive as their line ups are, they are basically "locals" and don't charge anywhere near what they do to come here, let alone the expense of flying them over. Your average club night in the UK costs more than our big parties here. Even parties elsewhere in Canada are way more. Here is the cost breakdown for the big halloween party in Vancouver: First 500 : $35, Next 1000: $45, Next 1500: $55. Next 1000: $65, last 500: $75 - thereafter $85. or a party in Edmonton with 2 uk djs charged $35 advance.

So where does that leave us? With NO large events. Some of you will say "good riddance" but I would like to state that the Toronto "underground" THRIVED when the big parties were running at full tilt back in '99. You had your CHOICE every weekend between all kinds of small events and big events. What are we left with now? Whether you attend them or not, big events are the backbone of any scene and I'm not happy to see them go. This problem IS unique to Toronto though, large events are still happening all over North American, just not here at home any more.

What am I saying after all this? I don't know. I'm just frustrated and sad that I'm ready and willing to throw a big Hullabaloo comeback event and I can't. I even have a date and venue booked and even met with the police today to solidify their numbers. Most promoters, myself included, are too afraid to charge for a big party what the fair price should be and so we're left with a bottom line that tells us we can't do it.

DJ Wolf

Chris, I've been expecting this point to be made for quite some time now, as sad as it is.

Aren't BIG events in the UK planned and advertised for months in advance? ...to the point where the kids going have quite some time to "save up" for their ticket to an event they have been waiting for in anticipation for a long time? The thought of a large Hullabaloo event has been keeping people drooling in anticipation since the start of the summer. If an event was idea'd for, say February, and promotion started now... it could circulate to a very large mass of those who would be willing to spend a higher price for a ticket to an event such as this. (Thousands and thousands manage to find $80-$100 to go to WEMF, and what WEMF is to the vast assortment of musical tastes across the continent, Hullabaloo is just that (if not more) to the "Hulla" crowd around Central-Eastern North America. A paty of such magnitude has a great potential to pull in a giant crowd of devotees who would be MORE than happy to spend a higher price on their ticket, with enough advance notice.

Just imagine what success of an event like this could be to the Toronto scene? A revolutionary turning point towards bringing back what everything USED to be and SHOULD be made better than it ever was..?

I think so.

You have my FULL support, Chris.

--Jeff

Jeffsus

People in this area have been spoiled by cheap ticket prices. While I was out west in 99, ticket prices were about $40, which I thought was quite high. (at the time)

It would be interesting to see if Toronto party kids put their money where their mouth is, and still supported events if they costed a more realistic value. In some cases I think they would, in other's probably not. Younger kids generally have less cash. Unfortunately, it would be an expensive probe on the part of the promoter if the people don't come.

On a semi related note, I don't understand how Ticketmaster gets away with collecting a service charge on the retail end and collecting a commission on the business end.... WHY is there no competition against them?

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laughtrax

i heard a rumour that other day that the docks costs $37k per night to use! now that's overpriced.

why go to BIG parties when you can see djs who are just as good and often better at clubs on a regular basis at a lower price? i know that doesn't help you but it gives you a possible explaination of why people won't pay lots of money to be crammed in a venue.

also i don't know how good of a solution doubling the price of parties in the local scene is. i really doubt people will pay, but maybe i'm wrong.

matt

Nubbie

Woooo

Those are some pretty hefty numbers. I was thinking that throwing a larger party would cost somewhere around $50k, maybe as much as $60k, but $74 000?

Jesus! Thats alot of money to make up and get out of nowhere if a company looses money on one of their productions.

I miss the big parties as much as any kid, but if throwing a big parties means possibly taking a respected company and going under with i... I wonder if its worth the risk?

Jeffsus: Lets start a new ticket master and thereby compete with the current ticketmaster... We can call it 'Buy your tickets from us'
But they have a stranglehold on the market... I don't really think any competetion would survive long against such a large widespread company... I think anyone's best chance is to try and go after them with monoply laws for hogging the market.

-=Nub=-

SPiNDLE

I think they should make more 'underground music 'rave' ' clubs that run all night. Kinda what we have here in St. Catharines - Vivid Lounge.

Resident DJs, weekly guests / guests whenever they can come, etc. etc.

You won't have to deal with all the whole 'where the venue is' and 'will ppl like the venue or not' crap. A club is a permanent thing. Like Turbo. It's consistent. I like consistency. I hate making a roadtrip to Toronto, only to find out that i went to the
'shitty' party... or to find out that 'i hate the venue' ... or 'the venue gets moved the last minute' and all the related bullshit.

A club, I know where it is, when it starts and that it's always gunna be there.

Toronto NEEDS more of these all-night / after-hours clubs of all diff. types of genres of music.

just cuz it's the way to go. I mean you can have a set all-ages night prolly a Fri if you don't wanna disclude the 'kids' who are underaged.

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fLiRtZ

Well, this is a very serious situation...

in my opinion, i miss the big parties, i mean, ok, i have only been
partying for a year, but i remember going to a couple hulla's at
the docs, and had a GREAT time.

it seems like it would be very risky to hold a huge party, and then go under 'cause of it, and i (and i am sure everyone else)
wouldnt want that ...

i think Jeff has a point, in which i agree on,
if you were to advertise a huge event way prior, then ppl would
be able to know ahead of time, and be able to get the cash.
(like how wemf was..-with it cheaper earlier to the event, and then more expensive closer to the date of the party)

i dont know if partiers would be able to 'save' money, as i know
its hard for me, but with the right amount of notice, i know i'd be
excited for the party, and make SURE to have SOME money set aside.. --and as for work, with that much notice, its easier to
book the time off needed for it.

so, all in all i suppose, if u (chris) were to raise the cost, i am sure
MOST partiers would understand why, and would still go...- ok thats speaking for myself, but i am sure there are others who think the same as me.

i think huge parties are great, and i wouldnt mind seeing more of
them, even if it means to pay a little more

partiers should try to be there, and support one another, -
especially for a hullabaloo party..... so i cant see why ppl would
complain...- i know there will probly be a few, but hopefully most would understand...

well.. i am babbling now, but thats my opinion on huge parties

i hope that it all works out chris

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Sliz

Yes.....the point of ticket prices being low is a very good one, looking at Slammin Vinyl parties I've noticed the 25 GBP which is double when converted to Canadian.......we've got it easy......-I- personally wouldn't have a problem with a $5 increase, it's only $5 dollars people!!!!!

(: PeacE

DJ Wolf

I don't think it's only a $5 increase we're talking about here. I don't see anywhere that $5 was mentioned...?

--Jeff

Everybodies_Daddy

I always figured that throwing a party is sometimes a lot more trouble than it's worth, but on the plus side, there's ppl like Frolic who realize it's not so much about the money as the experience.

To that effect, I'd pay $40 for a hulla ticket, if it meant that hulla will stick around.

I as well miss the bigger parties, and the days when you could pick what party you wanted to hit weeks in advance... Like First Contact, the first Freakin', Get Down Again... or hit the tight parties like Biohazard, Tantrum and Jedi Crew... I know a lot of those smaller promoters lost money too, which is why they're not around any more...

Just an idea here Chris, I understand that Alex (DJ Spock) has been jonesing to throw a tandem event in North America for some time. This has the benefit of shared cost, and a lower cost too, because He'll spin both a Hardcore and Jungle set... so that takes care of one of your headliners. You may also want to shorten the DJ list- give each DJ 1 1/2 hours or even 2 hours- I'm sure some of your guys like Frisky, D-Minus and Capital J & Spinz would appreciate a longer time to build a set. And lastly, headliners don't have to always be UK headliners... remember when Flex used to come to like EVERY hulla? One UK HHC headliner, one UK Trance headliner, UK MC, U.S. HHC headliner, and a North American trance headliner... that would/should cut your costs by like $3000 at the minimum.

MCED

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Alison

Everyone on this board is always talking about how much they want a big hulla or party. I'm sure that we can all find a little more cash to make this happen. Everything Anabolic does, he pretty much does for us. So whats the harm in spending 10, even 20 more bucks on a party? If were givin more notice then you just start saving early. If we want to keep this scene going we are all going to have to sacrifice a little more. But really, is it sacrifice to meet new people, hear great tunes and have an awesome night? I think not. This is just my opinion. But from what i have read, others on this board feel the same way. So lets stop taking and start giving a little, it only benefits us.

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ScottEE 2 HottEE

Pfft.. $30 too expensive for a party?

Please.. I know people who have spent that much on a tiny pill that they don't even have any proof that it even works other than a stranger assuring: "Yeah, it's good shit."

If it's a big party, with good dj's that is pretty much guaranteed to be a fun time almost no matter what.. $30-$40 really isn't all that much for a ticket price. I'd pay it anyways.

But yeah, I agree with Mike. Those are some hefty prices that I was never aware of.

Blah..

So no more big parties?

Alright, I quit.

Kornflake~Girl

So many politics on the way we dance and listen to music-
I rember that time in 98-99 when every damn weekend something big was happening and I lost so much money shelling out $25-$40 just to go and listen to my fave. DJ's spin...

I have seen location after large loaction be used, reused and the abused to the point where no one is to return again.
Places such as:
Arrow Hall, Missasauga
The Bingo Hall
The Wearhouse
Toronto Congress Center
Concert Hall

Either they have been sold by the owners OR for reasons beyond any promoters controll we just cant use those places anymore. Laws have been set up against the raving commuinity to controll our activies and gatherings so its no wonder why everyone when they reach legal age runs to the clubs never to pay the price of a $30-$40 rave ticket.

I would blame some promoters for their poor planning and actions to why some of the above locations cant be used for an all ages "Rave" event... hell- you cant even throw parties in the Peel region without a head-ache because of May 29th '99. But really- you cant blame them on the otherhand because throwing large scale parties like this was all new to everyone and it wasnt like any of the promoters has someone holding their hands all the way though and guiding them through every single step and for this I have to salute them, but in turn I frown when im doing so.

I actualy fear now for promoters who want to throw large scale events and for the ravers who have their undying lust for a large party just like it used to be... but really those days are gone- and if you missed it, you fucking misses it and nothing you can do or say will get that back again. That was then- this is now.

So thus I say "Dont hold your hearts for any large scale rave events for a long damn time." I would say that to any promoters who is going to try to throw a large scale party with all the bells and whistles to look into geting sponcership because your just not going to make your money back.
And you all know some peoples feelings on that issue so I wont get into that again

Get in touch with your Roots and orginal ideas is the only possitive feedback I can say with a smile.

~AnnK

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Klubmasta Will

very nice chris.

the only way i can see big parties coming back is if ALL of the large party promoters agree to raise prices to accomodate the new economic realities of the scene.

stargurl

I see nothing wrong with higher ticket prices. I go to a lot of concerts, where I will routinely pay $20-50 and up for just a couple hours of music. $40 for an entire night of talent is *not* a lot to ask.

Also, I agree with Will. It would have to be an across-the-board type of increase.

Rainbow Brit-E

I was at one time anti-big party but I think they are needed once in while... I was shocked to see no Freakin' this yr! I mean I never thought that it was the back bone of the scene until u miss one or two really great big parties.... look @ WEMF, sure it's a 3day but ppl remember that more then the little ones. I think people will pay the extra $$$. BUT! I don't want to see the little parties ticket prices going up 'cuz people will pay more for the big ones.... not that Chris would do that, it would just be sad if it happens. The big problem besides no $$ is the fuckin' Venues.... as in there are none!
I do agree with other though, that if all the promoters maybe communicated and agreed the big party ticket prices need to go up and agree on a fair price range things would be looking up.
I would personally pay more $$$ a couple times a yr for really big parties and I'm sure all the other hulla ppl would too!
We understand it's expensive Chris and we wouldn't think u were ripping us off! U wouldn't do that and we know u r one of the promoters that really care.... so u can have my 40 bucks for a big hulla anyday *hugs*

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beaker

thanks for posting this, chris.

yeseverythingyes

This thread needed to be posted, thanks.

I really miss big T-dot parties, especially hullas....
It felt like it was the end of an era when there was no hulla on thanksgiving weekend.

I think its cool to pay some extra cash to keep the vibe alive.
But at least two months notice would be necessary...
its all about the promoting.

Bring in Force and Styles and I'll have your children!

Nessa
~f'n misses big hulla parties~

bucky

hopefully more people will start to understand...

and for those who said, "just need rave clubs that stay open late." Those do exist already, BUT thats not the point at all. You'll never see the lineup you will at a big party, etc etc..

more or less it seems people have gotten really spoiled with cheap ticket prices, and along with that the first time a promoter tries to charge more everyone posts all over "such and such a promoter is in it for the money blah blah," little do they know the promoter will probably lose money... the added cost is to keep quality high while not losing your life over it all.

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bowzer

Just don't go out for one or two weekends, Im sure you could easily save like $30 from that. Ticket prices SHOULD be expensive for big parties, it only makes sense

NotificationOff

I would talk to OS/2 and see how he does it. He throws what seems like 16 events a year.. 12 small scale (ascension) and 4 large scale (destiny / new years / WEMF).

There are 3 possibilities:

1) He makes cash off of all of them

2) He is a victim of your financial model.. he loses money on the big events and makes money back on the small ones (somehow ?)

3) He is the greatest philanthropist of all time, and blows large amounts of money on the rave community 16 times a year.

I don't know which of the 3 is true, but it seems like he would be the best source for how to make things at least balance or be slightly in the red/black.

Astroboy

all good points Chris..and all reasons why ATM has not thrown a party in the past 8 months...
I agree, all promoters are going to have to come to an agreement to raise prices if large parties are ever to happen again....

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Astroboy out...

Nubbie

Well, he does go around the world djing for a career.

That and he does run DAMN! dj's, so the cost model isn't quiet there for most of his headliners, as they cost alot less then it would cost anyone else not connected to DAMN!

And he hasn't really thrown any big parties (besides wemf) this year :\

-=Nub=- <-- Definatly wants Destiny parties back

Vidman

Don't hate me Chris - I'm just blabbin
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Venue (The Docks) - How about somewhere in Hamilton or Miss. or somewhere just outside of Toronto that's cheaper?
electrician for day of install - find a friend/raver with the skills. I'm sure there's a few out there who want big parties to make a comeback.
lighting and av man for inhouse system the night of - find a friend/raver with the skills
cleanup - friends/family, people on the street looking for a couple bucks?
Additional sound and lighting for main room - doesn't have to be deafening loud.. cut back on the system a bit. Use the in-house audio system.. don't forget, it is a NIGHTCLUB
entire 2nd room sound and lights - doesn't have to be deafening loud.. cut back on the system a bit.. we'll thank you when we're older
team of av techs for stage and 2nd room - ravers with skills.. can be called upon if something goes wrong.. and put lights on audio & have pre-programmed effects
laser - not needed!
high profile secuity - The only company the Docks will allow right?
barricades for crowd/line - snow fence & poles, reusable.. or something cheaper than those big commercial metal things
talent-
2 UK hardcore DJS
2 UK trance DJS
1 UK MC
flights, wages, work visas, hotels for above
screw 'em, get North Americans. If they want to spin over here, they can move here.
15 local DJs and MCs - pay them less. Hulla's good exposure, and times have changed.. so should DJ's rates if they want to continue to make a bit of cash.
flyer printing - make them less elaborate.. one page, front & back, not glossy and not necessarily in full colour. you could strateigically design them to have only a few colours (ie that oldskool 70's retro look you see on some commercials).
flyer design - less elaborate, let designer have a big spot on the botom for credit. Get a raver in graphic design to make em
flyer distribution (postage and flyer people) - you pay your flyer people? Also, you could find out who's travelling to out of town, & give em some flyers to drop off at a store
magazine ads - why? The internet works
printing tickets - go cheapest. screw glossy & fancy.. they're just gonna be ripped anyway
taxi cabs - let someone use your rented car to drive people around?
long distance phone calls - again, no UK artists. furthermore, EMAIL is pretty cheap.
decorations - make them
whistles & other giveaways - I've been to a couple Hullas.. I've never recieved anything other than a cold. if you're the kind that uses a whistle, you'll bring one

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