anabolic frolic

Doubts at home hit troops
Soldiers stand by Afghan mission
PM's tough talk `means a lot to us'
Mar. 14, 2006. 04:51 AM
SUSAN DELACOURT
OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan—They are thousands of kilometres away from home, but not that far from the politics of their mission.

In the tent barracks of the Kandahar military base, on the rocky, dusty roads where they stroll with high-powered weapons strapped across their shoulder, Canada's troops in Afghanistan know Prime Minister Stephen Harper's visit this week had as much to do with domestic politics as international security.

There were no great cheers or rounds of applause for Harper as he stood before the troops on the base yesterday to tell them Canada was not about to "cut and run" from its Afghanistan commitment, as some critics might prefer.

But many did flock to Harper afterward for pictures or a private word.

Cpl. John Fingal, originally from Oshawa, was one of them. He was happy to see the Prime Minister on the base, precisely because of what he's been hearing from Canada.

"It means a lot, that his government actually supports us. Some statistics show that a lot of Canadians don't support us, but as long as we have the actual government itself it really means a lot to us," Fingal said.

Asked what he'd tell Canadian critics and doubters, Fingal talked about a friend who lived in New York when the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist strikes hit that city — about the fact that violence and dissent thousands of kilometres away can have a way of creeping up on Canadians.

"I want to tell them that they should realize that the threat isn't just to Americans or to Afghans. ... You can't hide from this threat," he said.

Inside the surprisingly well-appointed quarters known as B.A.T. (the "big-ass tent), in the minutes before Harper was due to arrive for a tour, Canadian soldiers were tidying military bunks laid out with Afghan carpets and warm, homey touches.

Back in the far reaches of the tent, a boardroom of sorts was outfitted with military plans and administrative flotsam and jetsam. On the big square table were carefully chosen computer printouts of news stories over the past month about the political debate over the Canadian mission abroad. The sheaves of paper looked well-thumbed.

Cpl. Pascal Johanny acknowledged some frustration with suggestions Canada needs another parliamentary debate on the commitment to Afghanistan. All three opposition parties are demanding a formal discussion in the House of Commons on the military mission, an idea Harper rejects.

"I believe the debate should be over with," Johanny said. "Now the Conservatives are in power, the decision has been made to send the troops out here and I think they should stop trying to debate stuff like that and just support the troops."

Johanny believed Harper's visit could do nothing but help in that effort.

"Since it comes from the highest part of the government, maybe more people who obviously voted him in will start listening," he said.

Cpl. Ron Barr said the troops pay a lot of attention to how they're perceived in Canada and positive reaction, mere support is gratifying.

But like many others, Barr talks about how this mission is motivated by a desire to help the Afghan people, not to curry favour or attention back home.

What would he say to those who wanted to question the mission?

"I think they should send all the people (who doubt us) on a tour of the place," Barr said.

"Then they could see firsthand, they could see with their own eyes, what we're doing for the people, and how the small factions are trying to disrupt everybody's day-to-day life. ... I think we spend too much money on debates, too much money on Crown investigations into this and that, and I just think we shouldn't have another debate."

anabolic frolic

I don't know too much about all this, but I have to guess most people think of Afghanistan and Iraq as the same thing and that's why they don't support being there. Even though they're totally different.

The mission is noble enough, the soldiers willing and able, it's under the UN, I feel bad that the soldiers on the ground there are picking up bad vibes from back home.

No Typical Raver

yeah we definitely have our own Vietnam kinda thing going on. sad really

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Everybodies_Daddy

Afghanistan is nothing like Vietnam, nothing like Iraq, nothing like any mission Canada has ever been on in our history.

Afghanistan is the new reality of warfare - or "full spectrum operations" - combining all out warfighting, peacemaking/keeping, and humanitarian relief, as well as training local police and the Afghan National Army to be professionals.

Our soldiers want to be there, because we're accomplishing the mission, bit by bit, day by day, like we did in Bosnia. It's dangerous, challenging, dirty, hard work, and that's what soldiers love. Operation Athena is generating new tactics, driving innovation in the way we train, and turning our army into the most seasoned, experienced, professional organisation it's been in over 50 years.

Ten Canadian soldiers have died in Afghanistan since 2001, not including the four killed by the American pilot. To pull out before stability is accomplished would tell the military that our soldiers died for nothing. What do you think that will do for morale? Probably right up there with disbanding the Airborne regiment as far as stupid ideas go.

Just my $0.02

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astralkid

"I believe the debate should be over with," Johanny said. "Now the Conservatives are in power, the decision has been made to send the troops out here and I think they should stop trying to debate stuff like that and just support the troops."
"I believe the debate should be over with," Johanny said. "Now the Conservatives are in power, the decision has been made to send the troops out here and I think they should stop trying to debate stuff like that and just support the troops."
"I believe the debate should be over with," Johanny said. "Now the Conservatives are in power, the decision has been made to send the troops out here and I think they should stop trying to debate stuff like that and just support the troops."
"I believe the debate should be over with," Johanny said. "Now the Conservatives are in power, the decision has been made to send the troops out here and I think they should stop trying to debate stuff like that and just support the troops."

No Typical Raver

with the exchange rate thats only $0.017311 U.S.

itsgigglegirl

i like that the formal term for where the meeting was held is "big-ass tent"

i'd join the army just to use the fun lingo

/tangent

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Everybodies_Daddy

The Liberals sent the soldiers to Afghanistan.

Three times.

astralkid

Yes, I know... I just don't like what he is saying- basically, we shouldn't talk about it, no discussion/ debate whatsoever. I think as a democratic nation, we need such open discussions.

Everybodies_Daddy

True that.

The only concern I have with what's going on is that the whole debate is being driven by 'public opinion polls', which are organized interests in and of themselves - by the question they ask, who they ask, where they ask it, and how it's phrased, polling groups are able to manipulate results. If they polled 1000 single mothers from downtown Vancouver, they'd get a much different response than if they polled 1000 truck drivers passing through Moose Jaw, for example.

My personal opinion is that we've made the commitment to be there for x number of years - two opposing governments made that decision. The debate should be centred on whether or not that commitment should continue after that period is up. Yeah, soldiers are going to die, but remember that we lost 128 soldiers from 1991-2004 in Bosnia, but re-established an effective state, and saved thousands of lives in the process. I'm planning on going to Afghanistan after completing my BA, should my life situation permit.

astralkid

I agree that polls can be manipulated... Nevertheless, I truly belive that majority of Canadians don't want troops in Afgnastan...

Why? I believe most people see this war as an extension on Bush's so called "War On Terror"... And it is! Let us not forget it was Bush that declared war on the Taliban and Afghanistan...

The present:

Now that the Taliban have gotten kicked out of the country, beleive it or not things have gotten worse. The drug problem, which the Taliban actually curbed is now booming! Ordinary Afghans are finding it even harder to find jobs because you have all these foreign firms coming into the country but they refuse to hire any of the people who actually live in that country perfering to hire forigners. So how are they suppose to make a living other than turn to growing drugs... Now drug warlords are in the picture more.

FUCKING SHAME!

I think most Canadians are actually waking up to this crisis we signed to. We need to pack and leave that country and leave these people alone. The Americans kicked the religious psychos out but now what we have are capitalist pigs who are bleeding the country dry. Any Canadian who actually has any moral cannot support this war. If you do, you need to ask yourself why.

kylefabulous

astral brings up some very interesting points...

i have a good friend from Columbia, and she was raised on a coca farm... her and her parents farmed and processed pure columbian cocaine... she has some amazing stories regarding the life and times of such childhood...

her and i were just talking a day or two ago about the similarities between afghanistan and columbia about 20 years ago. There was a very similar situation taking place in columbia in the 70's and early 80's... governments colided, and pablo escobar won =) that is what pushed columbia into being driven by the sale and manufacturing of cocaine... forcing family farmers to grow cocaine crops... not food to feed their families... etc!!! trapping them into a life that benefits the drug lords... not the people.

neighboring countries, like venezuela have been actively combatting the situation, offering refuge and opportunity for columbian citizens wishing to flee. this is actually perpetuating the problems though...

the only people that are left in columbia, are the people who populate and expedite the industry of cocaine...

it is estimated that the sale of cocaine, from columbia TO THE US,... ( not the rest of the world..... ) dwarfs the income of both WALMART and US Government combined... thats alot of Blow people =)_

the situation is strangely similar in afghanistan... really makes you wonder what America ACTUALLY wants with the Afghani people and their land... 300 billion dollars a year in drug trade is ALOT of money baby... and it is renewable... better than oil =)

astralkid

^ Exactly, there have been a lot of creditable articles written about the subject, but nobody seems to pay any particular attention to them.

Everybodies_Daddy

Sure, it's probably a bigger mess now than it was beforehand, but so was Russia after the fall of communism, or Germany after the fall of fascism, or the US or France after the revolution. Progress is hard, especially when the old, more flawed system is so deeply entrenched. Ask anyone who's been there, that country is already dry, and there's nothing to bleed. Sure, capitalism breeds inequality, but so does a Theocratic police state.

I don't think making a mess, then bailing out because it's too difficult to stick around and help rebuild solves anything.

astralkid

"Sure, it's probably a bigger mess now than it was beforehand, but so was Russia after the fall of communism, or Germany after the fall of fascism, or the US or France after the revolution."

1. This is an occupied country. Most of the occupiers have different cultural/ religious background than the natives

2. Captitalism is build on the misery of others. That simple. Although I would agree with ya, and rather live in a Capitalist country then a theoractic one

3. Is always about money. The US is still in Afghanistan because of the drug money/ keeping the US population beleiving they are fighting a good cause. Is like switch and bait, ohhhhhh, don't look there(Iraq), look hereeeeeeee, over here we are like chasing Bin Ladin and stuff

4. Most of the locals don't want you. Everyday they see you you are a constant reminder of their pains/ tribulations/ weakness.

I find it amusing, that some people still have the guile to believe certain nations can't govern themselves without the help of other enlighted nations.

Weaver

my opinion is this: It's America's war and we shouldn't be fighting it.

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No Typical Raver

do you expect anyone to be able to take you seriously after all that?

Everybodies_Daddy

Most of the locals don't care one way or another. They're used to being ruled unjustly, and for the most part, international politics has little effect on their lives.

The population breaks down as follows:

2% of the indigenous population are hostile towards ISAF & coalition efforts.

30% of the indigenous population are friendly, and see coalition efforts as a positive.

68% of the population don't care one way or the other - and these are the people we concentrate on winning their hearts & minds.

The vast majority of hostile acts are planned, funded, and initiated by foreign insurgents - particularly from Pakistan. They have the added benefit of not caring about collateral damage.

I saw some speakers from the US & Canadian armies talking about operations in Iraq and Afghanistan this week, and I gained a very new perspective on things. I still don't agree with the Iraq war, but hearing about the operations and motivations of the soldiers on a day to day basis makes me respect the way they do their job.

zzdrawkcab

hmm i see the goodness in all of it, helping alfghanistan and who-not, but i think we should help people here first, so much money is being spent on war, now (not related to) but the price of my tuition is going up, and i don't think ill be able to afford it. i dont' really have a place to go if im not up here, i guess i'd have to transfer and dorm at another school. not only is tuition going up, but they are taking away programs/clubs/classes. medical insurance, and stuff like that is nearly impossible.. i think america should start helping itself a little more before pouring so much of itself over others (who do as well need help).

Glyce

^^ Agreed. We need to help this country before we interfere with others too profoundly was my opinion. But now we're there, we've made a mess, and yes we certainly need to do a great many things to help clean up.

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NATO

I think this is a good video for this subject...you need to watch the whole thing.

Whitehouse Dinner Speaker

Keep in mind this is at the whitehouse, they showed it live on CNN when it was going on. He is brilliant! The president had a hand in bringing him there for the dinner as well. The ending is the best when bush will not hsake his hand...whatever, just watch.

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astralkid

Every week or so, as I log on to my AP newscast there is always talk about the latest Canadian casuality in Afghanistan.


Canadian troops went to Afghanistan as peacekeekers.

However, that changed:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/nation...ghan031223.html

In the article, Maj.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, the commander of all international peacekeepers in Afghanistan admits,
" Soldiers may have to shift their focus from keeping peace and patrolling streets." Moreover, "Troops will have to become more aggressive by hunting down insurgent forces attempting to cause disorder. "

This is far from "peacekeeping." No doubt about it, Canadian soldiers have abandoned their peacekeeping mandate. It would seem that, Canadian troops are now full participants of US operation, "Enduring Freedom."

However, Stephen Harper will not admit so. But a recent article shows, there has been, “Flood of letters, emails and calls" from Canadians asking the PM to bring the soliders home.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...72154&t=TS_Home

astralkid

NDP officially calls for Afghanistan pull out:



Source:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/09092006...an-pullout.html

Everybodies_Daddy

Hate to tell ya, but the mission to Afghanistan has never been 'peacekeeping'. Yes, it is under a UN mandate, yes, the troops are present at the behest of the Afghan government, but no, it's not, nor has it ever been peacekeeping.

The closest thing was the second mission, Op Apollo, which was with ISAF in Kabul, which was something approaching a stabilization force. The mission in the Kandahar region has always been a warfighting mission.

It's not the troops who want to come home, I can assure you of that. I've got 12 friends over there right now, in harms way, and each one of them volunteered to go, and each one of them is sure that every day they're making the world a better place.