Phreak

ade...

By stingent I don't mean strip searches.. what i refer to is the lack of true anti-drug messages being put forth by the promoters, dj's and mc's. how many times have you been at a jungle party and heard an mc shout out to everyone to smoke a spliff? last time i checked that was still illegal (but thats a whole different argument) the point is, promoters only place a token message on flyers to prevent drug use. Its the responsiblity of security and the cops to actually deter the drug use. The hipocracy goes even further than that. There are still a good number of promotion companies that have drug references as thier names, Big Bud, Dose, Ganja Smile to name a few.

as for the stigma's that have been attached to the scene by the media.. i hate to break it to you but those stigma's have come from the fact that raves are drug havens. You'd have to be blind not to see it, or just extremely narrowminded.

are the cops and security violating your civil rights? Certainly not. if you don't want to be searched so stringently, either don't go, or help do something about the drug problem. Report to a cop or security guard if you see someone dealing or even doing drugs. It will take a long time but eventually the message will get across that if you wish to do an illegal drug you WILL be punished.

this isn't going to be solved overnight. but then again what is? The police have it right. Increased presence does reduce the volume of drugs and od's. Someone asked how it reduces the od's?.. simple, if a dealer is booted from the party, then his drugs are confiscated and no one else gets them. If someone who is doing drugs is booted then their first stop is the paramedics who can asses their condition more accurately, and give treatment when needed.

Is security the problem? no.
Are PDO's the problem? no.
Is the rampant drug use that is all but openly accepted the problem? YES.

Rob
30848888
Phreak@popstar.com

onesketch

Phreak has got it right!

as long as drugs exist within our scene then the police presence is nessacary... does that mean banish drugs from the scene... no ... drugs will never dissapear.
i personally believe that RESPONSIBLE drug use is something that many people can handle... but a large part of RESPONSIBLE drug use0 means that you must hold yourself responsible for your actions... drugs are illegal... if you get caught... be mature enough to accept the consequences. police are at parties to uphold the law and public saftey... not to be assholes.

question to promoters... what is more important to you... the health and saftey of the people who support your parties... or your bottom line?

Lair Driver

Holy shit now, before anyone breaks out the kleenex for Syrous, lets realize a couple of things here..

$50,000 for the CNE + Union Employees
$20,000 for PDOS
$10,000 for Security
$75,000 for djs ( Includes flights & Hotels)
$20,000 for flyers ( overestimation)
$20,000 for other


Anyways, these are just guesses, but Im not that far off, 7000 people at 50 dollars at ticket is

$350,000 dollars!!
subtract what Syrous's costs are -
$195,000 -

they still make $155,000

Even if Im off by how much, they still make a shitload..holy christ, honestly - Why are they complaining? They go on record in the National Post as saying they 'throw concert sized events' and they do-bringing in Eminem, Run DMC, etc.. and throwing the usual jungle/house jam into the mix, If they want to go play with the big boys , let em..

Want to know why we dont get along with the Politicians, we dont do anything for our communties, no one donates money , we come accross as sheltered and withdrawn, and no one helps this image..Raves ARE NOT CIRCUSES..

MechanicalMan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phreak:
Report to a cop or security guard if you see someone dealing or even doing drugs. It will take a long time but eventually the message will get across that if you wish to do an illegal drug you WILL be punished.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Anti-drug fascists irk me.

Hey Mr. sXe, do you actually think that death penalties deter murderers too?

You are probably aware that an enhanced PDO presence does nothing to deter drug use and/or sale(its not hard to realize), you are just using this argument to rant about drugs.

Let's turn the dancefloor into a frontline for the war on drugs!


[This message has been edited by MechanicalMan (edited October 26, 2000).]

Nick Wright

I have always had this naive notion that we pay for the police the protect and serve through our taxes.

It looks to me like the police are just greedy and are looking to get a peice of the rave pie for themselves.

One thing that never seems to be mentioned in the articles is that these police are being hired in addition to a professional security firm. Perhaps if the police are so keen the security firm isn't neccassary. Let the PDO's do the job of the security. and with there expertice at $45 an hour certainly one PDO can do the work of four security guards (heavy sarcasm).

So in conclusion fuk tha popo.

dylan*

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lair Driver:
Holy shit now, before anyone breaks out the kleenex for Syrous, lets realize a couple of things here..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what exactly is your beef with lifeforce?

dylan

MC Lucid

u know what im not complaining or nothing, but this pdo thing is deffintly sumpin that should be adressed and hopefully sorted out for teh best of both parties somehow i wish i knew a way but i dont, but it is sumpin to look into.

oh and you know what i think in the last few years do to parties i musta been searched more times then if i was in prison.

Dr Nick

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MechanicalMan:

Let's turn the dancefloor into a frontline for the war on drugs!

B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen! Just say know!

MechanicalMan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nick Wright:
I have always had this naive notion that we pay for the police the protect and serve through our taxes.

It looks to me like the police are just greedy and are looking to get a peice of the rave pie for themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

As someone stated above, cops love paid duty, often they go out of their way and try to get it, and those with seniority get first cracks.

I bet dollars to donuts(pardon the pun) that when the ban was lifted and it was recommended that the police decide the number of PDOs, they figured "hey, we can take advantage of this situation, get more of our guys paid duty work, shit the union will love this."

Id much rather that money go to TRIP instead of the cops.


[This message has been edited by MechanicalMan (edited October 26, 2000).]

Destiny_Productions

What many people here are not seeming to grasp is that the problem is not with the massive events - they can afford to pay whatever the police ask - they will continue as long as people attend. The real problem with the PDO/Undercover blackmail is that smaller events will be squeezed out of existance - how can most promoters afford $5,000-10,000 in extra costs for a 1500+ person party? They will be eliminated from the scene or have to start charging ridiculous prices so they can still earn a living.

I have recently played a number of parties in Vancouver. One event had 1000 people in attendace and was planned for that size. Tickets were 40 in advance and 60 at the door. These crazy prices were the result of the high cost of policing that has come abount in Vancouver lately - do we want that here? $50 for every event could soon become the norm instead of the exception if we allow the authorities to unjustly set these rificulous levels of security.

OS/2

Lair Driver

What my beef is? Why would anyone be complaining when they stand to make more money then the Prime Minister does in one year?! This issue is - are the authorities abusing their influence on us? Yes they are. But if you rent @ THE CNE- those are the risks, the only reason you would ever rent a place that big is to pack it- its not a 'rave' or'party' its a Concert. Its one officer for every 155.5 people, thats not that fucking bad, You throw an event that is that large, you understand the risks..

The Rave Scene 'authorities' have chosen to work with Government Authorities- Obviously I dont think its working, They make us hire all sorts of PDO's, Abide Bi-Laws, but while we are cooperating with them- THEY ARE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF PASSING BILLS TO MAKE IT EVEN HARDER- Legislature is in the works to control 'raves' on Non-City owned Property too, Why cant we do something else?

My beef with Lifeforce? They've done their good, now they are full throttle and turning parties into fucking circuses- It may work in Europe, or the UK- not here. I dont really have a problem with them, But when you are making this much money, why dont you donate some of it to charity..- Do something good, come accross as wanting to help others,
We donate money to the Humane Society & Salvation Army after our parties, even if we have lost,

The Media's perception of us is allwrong, we are potrayed as Drug Infested Sex Orgies, with Loud Music- to everyone in the newspapers. Its sad. But who are we really kidding? The whole fucking problem has allways been Drugs, and Irresposible partiers. When I first started attending parties, there was nothing- You could maybe get E- if you were lucky, You could get Acid, maybe shrooms. Cocaine was considered the drug of the rich man, now-

E, MDMA, K, G, - what is this a fucking alphabet lesson?!
and the list goes on-
Cocaine
Heroin
Crack ( oh fuck!)
Epehdrine
Speed
Yaba- ( find out soon enough)


This is pure bullshit. Im at parties all the time..and people ask me the same questions "Are you dosing, what are you on?" then they go on to tell me they "3 Bumps of K, 2 Eyes, Some Crystal"- All the time, At least one out of every 2 people at parties now is high on something, thats fucking bullshit- Put a hole fucking Platoon of Police, and arrest every heartless dealer who sells his piece of shit drugs, knowing that 'Buyer Beware' is his only moral defence, Knowing deep down inside that not only could the person die a horrific death which includes-

1. Body Temperature rising over 107
2. Full body Convulsions, Seizures etc..
3. Massive Internal organ failure

What piece of shit human beings attend our parties and deal drugs now? They have ruined it, In the case of Allan Ho- As much as people want to say , well the venue could have been better, paramedics etc, He took the drugs thinking he was going to get High- Not Die, Barely ever attended parties- and He dies of an overdose- People think when they Go to Raves that doing drugs is part of the whole Territory.

Who are we truly kiding here- Ourselves, Do We want Police to Remove Drug Dealers or at least take a crack at the problem, Lord Knows Security hasnt.. The day attending a Rave could ever be associated with Dying- is the day we really have to look at things, Now you have people G'ing out, Multiple Overdoses at Large Events, Deaths at Hulla, Effective, Destiny- all awesome companies, but devestated by deaths!! Some Promoters are partly to blame as well, skimping on Security and Paramedics, turning a blind eye-
Ask yourself this=
If you see a Drug Deal, do you tell Security, or are you afraid of being a rat? Sure You could turn the eye, and forget about it, that person may get high, may have an awesome time, that dealer can go on and deal his shit...Or , would you tell a guard 'Heh yo, there's some guy over there dealing out in the open,' ..I was my hands of this shit, The rave scene is on eggshells..Drugs will break it, nothing else.

MechanicalMan

There has always, always been drugs at raves. If you say otherwise, you werent there back in the day or you're lying...

And if your idea of a swell party is one in which the partiers run around and tell security "hey, theres a guy smoking a joint pover there, kick him out., then thats too bad.

zoo

you people are boring.

lazy e

i wannado yabba yabbayo

onesketch

drugs are a huge part of the rave scene... and without them the scene would definately be different... i do not dispute that... what i am saying is that people must accept that drugs are illegal and that the police have every right to uphold the law... and we will just have to live with that... the presence of police at parties has not and will not decrease the use of drugs... but they have the right to be there.

Ade

In response to Phreak's post where he begins with
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"ade...
By stringent I don't mean strip searches.. what i refer to is the lack of true anti-drug messages being put forth by the promoters, dj's and mc's..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reality is that there is a lack of true anti-drug messages being put out by partiers. This scene is not created or owned by the promoters, the dj's, or the mc's. It is owned by US - the partiers. We created it, we maintain it. We have a pretty laidback attitude about things like drugs, just like we don't believe people who try and tell us that drug use is bad, period, or people who make other blanket statements with no logical basis or real justification (like sexism, racism and homophobia), or people that encourage us to turn on our fellow partiers and report them to security. We grew out of believing this kind of crap in elementary school.

Your problem is a common one - you equate right and wrong with legal and illegal. There is a major difference here. You talk about turning in people because they're smoking a joint at a party - now suppose marijuana becomes legal in this country, which is not that hard to visualize. Would this change your perception on the rightness or wrongness of smoking weed? It wouldn't change mine. I maintain that a person's body and mind are their own and that they are free to do as they like, as long as they do not harm others. This is an attitude shared by the more enlightened governments of certain other countries, notably Holland. In your world of legal means right, would this mean that drug use is okay in Holland but not here? It sure as hell does not seem to be adversely affecting the scene over there, they definitely have some world-class djs and some world-class parties. I don't allow my perceptions of right and wrong or my love and respect for my fellow partier to be affected by the seemingly arbitrary drug laws of this country.

You say that "raves are drug havens." Raves are not drug havens, they are havens for people who think a little different, people who *are* a little different. Before you accuse me of being "blind not to see it, or just extremely narrowminded.", question your own assumptions. Or take a trip to Holland.

In response to Lair Driver's first post:

First of all, it does appear that you have a beef with Lifeforce. Since you are not a member of Lifeforce, I question how you can post up their costs on this website. Even if you were right, I don't think a profit of $155,000 is that much to make on a party that size. There are a lot of other costs involved in running a company and a lot of people to pay. This doesn't even get into the taxes they have to pay. I don't think that $155,000 goes straight into one person's pocket, like you suggest with your "prime minister" comment.

In response to Lair Driver's second post:

You sound like a religious pamphlet.

First of all, I will believe that you don't throw parties for the money when you donate ALL OF THE MONEY YOU MAKE to charity. Until then I think the holier-than-thou comments about donations to charity should stop. Furthermore, I question how you know that Lifeforce never donates money to charity and invite you to offer some proof that promoters other than yourself "dont do anything for our communties, no one donates money, we come accross as sheltered and withdrawn".

Your drug comments are also designed to scare people and not to cast any real light or clarity on the drug situation at parties. You say:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"not only could the person die a horrific death which includes-

1. Body Temperature rising over 107
2. Full body Convulsions, Seizures etc..
3. Massive Internal organ failure"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is this kind of attitude that creates stigmas. What is needed instead is a rational assesment of the situation, not a graphic list of the sort of thing that can happen when everything goes wrong. We all recognize that there are certain risks to taking drugs. Responsibility and reason are key, not hysteria. If you look at a magazine advertisement for anti-depressants, viagra, any other pharmaceutical product, you will find a list of the same sort of horrifying side effects that you mentioned on the back of the page (often also including death). But people still take anti-depressants, because they make a judgment call that the benefits outweigh the risks. Who are you to make this judgment call for others???

You also say:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"When I first started attending parties, there was nothing- You could maybe get E- if you were lucky, You could get Acid, maybe shrooms. Cocaine was considered the drug of the rich man, now-

E, MDMA, K, G, - what is this a fucking alphabet lesson?!
and the list goes on-
Cocaine
Heroin
Crack ( oh fuck!)
Epehdrine
Speed
Yaba- ( find out soon enough)"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is your newfound beef with drugs at parties based on the variety available? It sounds like it was okay to have drugs at parties as long as they were ones you approve of, but now that they have alphabetical names you suddenly have a problem with them. I also question the accuracy of your comments. I would bet that very few people if ANY AT ALL are doing crack at parties, or heroin either. Your comments are hysterical and do not seem to be based on any factual information. Where did you get this list of drugs? I think I can answer that question myself - you made it up. So back it up! Maybe you should do a survey at one of your parties. I would be more inclined to believe your comments about heroin use (a drug that is highly unsuited for a party) if you could back it up.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Multiple Overdoses at Large Events, Deaths at Hulla, Effective, Destiny- all awesome companies, but devestated by deaths." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Devastated by deaths" - yeah, whatever, buddy. Drugs will never break the scene. The scene is unbreakable.

Peace,

-Ade

"Don't believe the hype." - Public Enemy

tuesdaysfather

"hey..what is that?? over there!! oh yeah!! I see it!! it's the voice of reason!"

Neil

Klubmasta Will

ade - lotsa respect.

respect also to phreakrob and lair driver. even though we may disagree, i know you both have the best of intentions.

Klubmasta Will

Lair Driver

What are you a class a dipshit or what?! I sound like a fucking religious pamphlet, !! haha, I didnt say donate the total amount - Maybe some, what the fuck is the real complaint here anyways?!

Who do you think you are talking to me like I dont know what Im talking about, Ive seen every drug listed being used at a party, You want to sit there and Promote Drug useage at a party than dont come to parties. There is no such thing as responsible drug useage- There are no laws here for us to get people to teach us how to use drugs, and not to hurt ourselves or die, Its people like you , you live in this bullshit false utopia sorry excuse for a world if you think that 'Drugs' will allways be a part of the scene, They are not Part of the scene, Any idividual who chooses to do drugs at a party is doing so because he or she feels the need to do so, It doesnt have anything to do with -oh well because Im at a Rave I can stay out all night and get high..Got news for you , This problem isnt strictly a Rave/Party problem, Millions of People every weekend, from all walks of life, Look for different places to do their drugs in, Sadly since DRUG USEAGE Is become a serious problem, Raves are a virtual heaven for them, Factual Information my ass.. You go and pass out your pamphlets at parties teaching people how to do drugs the right way= Instead of encouraging people to maybe not doing them, Is this simply a Situation where, Well if we cant beat em- Join em&gt; Its a huge fucking problem, I cant beleive how dense of a response that Is, Are you Rave Jesus? What do you think the problem is buddy? It certainly isnt the Fucking Music, It isnt the Parties, It isnt the Politicians or Police, what is your solution, Obviously there is something wrong with things-

Hysteria, Ive been attending parties since 1993, Ive seen it all, done it all without drugs, Im not saying everyone should live by my example, But obviously you cant ignore the facts that the RECENT DEATHS at our parties have brought ON a massive amount of pressure from the Police, They werent looking to see if we werent paying our taxes- They wanted to know why people were getting sick and dying, SO yes now we have all sorts of problems with them- they arent going to go away,
Im not saying since Ive been going to parties that I deserve some special status, But I have scene an awful lot, everything is going downhill, Who are you kidding anyways- We have hardly any venues left, alot of the oldschool companies gone, and everything else has virtual exploded, achieving mainstream status.

Of course there is allways going to be someone on here that disagrees with me, I agree with Will, and quite honeslty - Its very good of him to let us know what the Politicians are going to do to us next, PDO jobs are Overtime for COPS, that means big money, So they are cashing in, Of course its wrong, But its also at the Promoters Discretion to use them how he may, He is hiring them...I know what I have said means something, tolerating blatant drug useage is never the answer, its quite obvious it isnt fucking working. All of the major problems lately have been because of Drugs, but thats okay- Im allways the one to say things like this, Ade you should be biting your tongue, you have no idea what you are talking about..

Phreak

will.. thats all ya got to say? i'm dissapointed

abe.. you're right.. it is up to the partiers. they are the ones who make the scene, and the problem is inherent to them alone. unfortunately somewhere along the lines in these people's lives they've come to accept drugs as inconsequential.

Mechanical Man.. at no point was this a personal attack and i expest the same degree of respect back in your responses. as for being a anti-drug fascist? you honestly made me laugh. Drugs are illegal. I honestly cant see how i am in the wrong if don't condone their use.

as for the weed issue, have absolutely no problems with the legalization of HEMP, and marijuana for medical uses only. all this talk of enlightened cultures is completely irrelevent. The laws of this country are flawed, but they are still the laws that we as citizens must abide by, If you don't like them, then take action and change them. How long has Allan Young been fighting for legalization? a long time. and has he actually made steps in reaching his goal? of course.

Drugs have always been a part of the scene. Does that make it acceptable? no.

Rob
30848888
Phreak@popstar.com

simpletee

ade: it's "mr. driver" not lair driver!

Lite Sabre

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vidman:
Why don't they all just shut the fuck up and start throwing parties OUTSIDE of Toronto..
If you don't like what you have to work with, go somewhere else!!

-=dån=-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still waiting for your next one Dan!!


$10,000 dollars just for policing!!! That IS a lot. Meh...


"Trying to fix or change something, only guarantees and perpetuates it's existance."

Lite Sabre

[This message has been edited by Lite Sabre (edited October 27, 2000).]

Chronic_Raver

To me Freakin is not a rave. Its a big concert. There will probably be tons of thugs, people selling comet as drugs, and gansters robing everone. I would not feel safe going to this party. I can't beileve this event is being called a rave cause it is defintely not a rave in my defiition. So I don't blame the cops for what they are doing.

Nightmare Prod

ok why does everyone attack everyone else.
i have found my self doing this due to being outragged to someone attacking me for reason beyond my controll and if we want to succed as a repectfull city and through the safiest events possible regardless of the size of the party we are gonna have to work together.

Lair i'm sorry but i do have to desagree with almost all you said life force dosent make that much and they do make sure their events are as safe as possible.

os/2 i agree with your first post 100%

aswell as there all companies out there who do use some of their profits for charity as have we.

All i ask is that we work as one not as 40 diffrent companies against everyone else i have nothing but repsect for almost all the companies out there and i do realize that there will be complaints regardless of how safe your event is.

This thread is getting out of the main purpose it was intended for which was pdo at "rave" events and other nightly events after 3am.


Much repspect goest out to klub master will for his continue support and fight towards torontos raves being as awsome as can be.