Commander Keen

^^

I believe that as long as people do things for recreation, bad things will continue to happen. ie drugs, sports, drinking, smoking.
nobody needs to go out an kick a ball around while people watch.
don't get me started on drinking smoking... studies have been done for half a century that confirm that they are both bad for you, and yet we tolerate the negative consequences.

I believe that the negative publicity about Ecstacy is becasue it's new, and its unregulated.. anything done in excess is probably not good for you. If say tylenol was being used for recreactional purposes, and people were dying because say a small percentage of people were really sensitve to the active ingredient, I doubt there would be a huge outcry.. Also, if a person overdosed on tylenol because they took like 8 pills, people blame the person and not the drug...


moderation is good... "everything should be done in moderation, even moderation"... I heard that quote from one of the band members of STP on much music today. I think that a good percentage have gone on a few drug/drinking benders and ahve lived to tell about it... many of us have stories to tell as a result.

don't blame the kid.. he was basically doing what everyone is doing. it could happen to any one of us..

fLiRtZ

i have been reading everyone's reply to this issue, and i think it's a very serious one.
i honestly dont know what to say about this whole thing, or how to feel... i mean, a young boy died, yes, and i feel bad, and my heart goes out to his family and friends...

i just wish that instead of only TALKING about partying safely, i wish that it could happen, and people would realize that partying is not about drugs, sure, the music lyrics are drug related, and drugs could make you have a good time, but i have partied sober a few times (i havent been to all that many parties) and i have a GREAT time when i am sober, sure, later on in the nite when everyone is.. messed out of their minds, its very scary, and i honestly dont like being around, but the music is great, and the vibe is usually great too.

i hate to see all this negative news about parties, because i know that parties are not all bad, or what parents make them out to be, i know that my mother is against them, and she hates me going, but i am 20 years old, and she cant really stop me.. she just has to trust me, and i have to trust myself not to get caught up in the moment, and realize that while i am there, in a sense, my life is on the line.. i mean, even if i take a drink of someone else's water while there, i am at risk of taking drugs that COULD be in the water... which can be scary...

i dont really know the point i am trying to make, its late, and i just finished reading it all, and i wanted to at least put my thoughts down for ppl to read...
basically, what i think would be great, is to have more info on parties, and drugs, even if teachers need to teach kids at a younger age, because they learn about it anyways, usually before they learn all the side effects in school, and i know that there is so much info out there already, but there must be some way to make people understand, REALLY understand the side effects of every drug out there, and all about parties, - the good and the bad....
i duno, all this that i am writing may not make much sense, but i really think that if everyone worked together (like parents, and teachers, and rolemodels, and partiers) to realize whats out there, then it could be a safer place.. *i know this is already being done, but obviously people arent taking it too seriously, and something needs to be done about it...

thnx for reading, hope i didnt bore you, or lose u too much...
R.I.P. Daniel...

__________________
'it's Real and its been Fun, but was it all reaL fuN?'

Jess

thank you

__________________
www.neksis.com

Nubbie

Its completely comparable.
Instead of the driver
You have the Kid.

Instead of walking without looking and a car...
Its a couple of small oddly coloured pills.

Both have a kid just trying to have fun... maybe it was the only way he knew how to loosen up?

-=Nub=-

candypants

There's a calculated risk-that everyone knows about-in taking anything, especially things got from people at parties. I have to agree with commander keen-regardless of whether you know the person you are buying from or not, there is still a risk, as there is a very small chance that even they know what is in the substance they are selling. Even though it is likely a false sense of security, I can understand why people would prefer to know the seller. It makes you feel like..you're going to be ok, you have nothing to worry about, because you know the person. But while the person is trustworthy, the substance is 50/50. It could be ok or it might not be. Even when we pull the wool over our own eyes and tell ourselves that what we are doing is ok, we still know that, even if we are taking small amounts, or being as safe as possible, there is STILL a very big risk involved.
For those partiers that choose to use drugs, yes, they know that they are responsible for putting whatever they use into their bodies. Even under peer pressure, it is still your hand that takes the drugs. This said, no one wants to die. This poor boy, who IS, I.M.O., deserving of the utmost pity, knew what he was doing. He knew the risk involved, as we all do. And as we all do, he disregarded it. But that doesnt make him stupid, nor does it make him irresponsible. The moment he took the drugs he became responsible for his actions, therefore his death.
It really has no relevance to anything, when we argue about whether he was stupid in taking 2 pills at once or not, whether he should have bought from someone he knew, as opposed to someone he didn't.Either way, he would have taken something, right?It just so happened that what he took was seriously bad for him, and it's terrible but he's gone. The same way that any of us could be at any given time should we choose to take that risk and ingest those substances. That's the risk.
Yes, it's terrible that people use raves as an excuse to go out and get high. Ideally, it should be about the music, the people, and the dancing. But as of now, it's inescapable. For many people, raves and E are inextricably tied together. They go hand in hand. The drug heightens the great experience of the party.
I dont know...how to answer to his death. I dont really know..what the point of this reply is. I just felt..so saddened that this had to happen at all to someone who was just out to have a good time.
The way it could happen to any of us, you know?

Everybodies_Daddy

It was a hypothetical question.

I've said it before and I'll say it again EDUCATION and commUNITY will help prevent these deaths. Someone should have been there to tell him to take a half at a time...

MCED

__________________
Dirty Little Secrets

Hot + Dirty

fireflygodess

Its completely comparable.
Instead of the driver
You have the Kid.

Instead of walking without looking and a car...
Its a couple of small oddly coloured pills.

Both have a kid just trying to have fun... maybe it was the only way he knew how to loosen up?

-=Nub=- [/B][/QUOTE]
True the only factor remaining unchanged is the kid. However, as I mentioned before, in the car situation there was somebody else that could have changed the outcome. With the pill popping incident the only one who has the power to change the outcome it the person taking the pill. What do you expect the pill to do, jump out of the kid's hand. The pill is an inanimate object, thus it can't control where it is being put. A person driving a car is a living, thinking organism, that can react and take charge of a situation depending on their capacity to think. Therefore the driver can prevent the kid's death by swirving out of his way, while the pill can't. So don't go comparing apples to oranges. Get back to me when you are older and have been out there fighting for your own survival. You see things in a whole other light when you can't leave the desicions your life depends on, on someone else's hands.

FIrefly

__________________
An Idle mind is the devil's workshop. Stay out of hell

Nubbie

You certainly have alot of nerve saying that.
Age certainly has nothing to do with this at all. Experience yes, but age no. I've been through my share of being dragged through the dirt, and I for one think you have no right saying 'Get back to me when you are older and have been out there fighting for your own survival." I've fought every inch for what I have now, and I think you're just trying to pull something out of your ass akin to a 'Holier then thou' attitude.

Well you're wrong, my whole argument is to say that we shouldn't be damning this child for dying, as you are doing.


As to comparing what I said
One is the person making the choice
the second is the object or action of choice.

(Oranges and apples are still edible after all, and can be compared on those grounds)

Now if you're done thinking I'm a dumb 16 year old who wants the world to be happy and shake everyone's hand.

I'm going to tell you to grow the fuck up, you may have 'been out in the world' but you still appear to have no sense of sympathy or remorse. I think you're a social robot. Like I said earlier; someone died, we should all be sad of the world's loss, we're all human after all.

Would you go damning his name if he were your own child?

-=Nub=-

Roches

I really don't think education will work.

It's nice to say, yeah, but.. it means nothing to most people.

I don't even know how many times I've presented ravers with real, valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence, including my explanations of why it's valid and why you can't just say "well, how do they know it was MDMA?" or "but they gave them huge doses!"... and I don't know how many times ravers have either totally ignored what I said or continued in their poor, unsupported, emotionally-based defense of why doing E isn't bad.

(K is bad, though. K is bad, bad and dirty. You don't even need research to know that; you snort it, so it must kill you. And E is just a cute harmless pill. Weed isn't even a drug.)

I don't even do E, and I've spent huge amounts of time trying to explain the risks and what few ways exist to minimize them. Ravers do not listen.

You can conceivably die from ONE E, particularly if you do something like drink too much water--you need water to avoid overheating (although MDMA is an anti-diuretic and actually doesn't dehydrate you in and of itself), but too much water, and the concentrations of sodium in your brain will be too low to keep your heart beating.

How many of you people even know that an MDMA overdose can cause you to start bleeding from every orifice in your face? It's called disseminated intravascular coagulation, and it's not the most common mechanism of MDMA overdose, but it does happen.

Oh, wait, but <insert name of victim> didn't die of an MDMA overdose, they died of <something else>!
No, they died because they took MDMA.

It could happen to anyone, and certain types of people are at significantly higher risk (although I won't say what types; it's wrong). Some people can do twelve or sixteen E's in a night and be fine (except for the inevitable permanent brain damage), and others could do one and die.

E is not safe.
E is a lot more dangerous than heroin, more dangerous than coke or crystal...contrarily, ketamine and LSD are safer than riding a bike, safer than golfing, safer than swimming... safer than having sex, even =P

See, you not only have to be educated, you have to believe it. There's a HUGE difference between believing everything people tell you and knowing when to believe it.
When they present fat stacks of journal articles, maybe you should consider believing it.

people why don't you come and hear,
people why don't you come and hear, come and hear...
people, realize, the druggies(?) are telling lies...
empty heads are feeling proud, feeling proud, feeling proud...
educate the narrow minds, they see what they wanna see,
educate the narrow minds, they feel what they wanna feel, what they feel, what they feel...
think about the time we've wasted...
going back to what has been...
- genaside ii - narramine (brain 7, 1991)

In the West the fading light still glows
and the clustered housetops glitter in the sun,
but here Death is already chalking the doors with crosses,
and calling the ravens, and the ravens are flying in.

Commander Keen

^^
agreed.. I think we all know that E is bad for you...

but I think a lot of us question the law rather than the scientific facts.

we all know cigerettes are bad for us.. and alcohol is bad too... but there is no public outcry.. why are they picking on us and our lifetyle? I think most of these arguements are a defensive mechanism... "smoking is bad, it costs the health care system billions a year, and it's still legal. Alcohol causes liver damage, and underage people drink all the time." why is E treated differently?? why are we branded as criminals..
we treat this issue as a criminal problem... its not, it's a social problem... treat it as such...

Ford Prefect

Although e is not physically addictive it is more toxic than heroin or cocaine, .

A more harmful drug is in actuality alcohol- not only is it physically addictive, but astonishingly toxic as well. Ask a pharmacologist if you don't believe me.

For those who I know will oppose the last statement, perhaps you should recall certain experiments done to inmates in American penitentiaries years ago, when prisoners had less rights. A number of people were used as guinea pigs and force-fed certain quantities of alcohol proportional to periods of time- some ranged from a drink every few days to several every few hours. When the experiments ceased, many died of convulsions or other withdrawal-related symptoms.

Funny how society picks and chooses what to condemn- look how many magazines (ie Time) turn a blind eye to the number of alcohol related crimes and deaths, due to the fact that they are sponsored by breweries and distilleries. Has the government ever once threatened to ban bars in order to mitigate deaths stemming from drunk driving and cirrhosis of the liver? (And terminate such highly lucrative facilities?)

Whenever such issues arise, there is always the argument that not everyone drinks or goes to bars in order to appease an addiction. The majority go to socialize or have a fun night out (and people are capable of getting buzzed while staying responsible).
Couldn't the same be said about parties?

Further tragedies could be spared by eliminating the problem altogether. Or, we could deal with it through education and support.

Everybodies_Daddy

Roches, you're right. People need to believe in what they're told.

^^^^^^

That however is pessimistic. The only things you can't accomplish are the things you never attempt. I remember one night at Guvernment, I was babysitting some mashy gina chick who'd taken some kind of E. The only thing she knew was that it was "a blue something" She was hallucinating, freaking out when I found her. I calmed her down, and talked with her for hours, telling her that taking drugs is like playing russian roulette, and to educate herself, or don't touch the shit. I sat with her for the rest of the night, and in the morning when her friends came to pick her up from her corner (shooting me very dissapproving looks, after all, what's a "raver" doing talking with their friend. But she ran back, kissed me on the cheek, and promised me that she would never do drugs again.

Was she just saying it, or did she really mean it?

Education works. Some people need more to convince them, but it works. If every raver could help just one person this way, the world would be a better place. No denying it.

By the way, I ran into this same girl at a party later that winter- stone cold sober, and had a bag full of E-ducation pamphlets that she'd found on the internet.

Moral of the story?

Pay it forward.

MCED

Roches

oh i love that attitude, really...

there were some people at mcdonalds yesterday, system people.

talking as if they had just been the cover story of mixmag, as if they were personally selected to be the gods of clubbing itself.

and i, of course, being a *dirty raver*, stood back and laughed at them, at the way they talked, and especially the two cell conversations. you know what i mean. you know that guy that works at systems, right? well, damn, if you work at a club you MUST be cool. and damned rich, no less, and can probably get E's way cheaper than a dirty kid like me.

i feel no inferiority before them, not even with their small pants. they listen to the trance-music, and that alone is enough to discredit them.

anyway.

"the scene has changed, i havent", right, and im condemned for all eternity to walk among the urban uberkewl people who went to OCAD or work in IT.

which is interesting.

they won't oppose E until they have a bad experience. for most of them, this bad experience is going to come a few decades from now. depression, memory loss, that kind of thing.

MDMA is easily oxidized into free radicals. other drugs aren't oxidized nearly so easily. other drugs simply aren't as toxic. it's a special case. the mainstream may not always be right when they talk about the risks of drugs, but with MDMA they are pretty close.

and it's not because it's new. science, especially biology, is an entirely different field now than it was in the late 60's when they were saying LSD breaks your chromosomes. much more likely, i think, to discover the truth in an issue like this.

Roches

incidentally i JUST found out YESTERDAY that over the last two decades, two million people have died in an ongoing genocide in Sudan.

you hear very little about it, of course, because Sudan is an oil exporter, and the issue's been mostly surpressed.

Two million people... that's more than 300 people per day, about the same as a major plane crash, 22,500 times more people than would have died from Ecstacy overdoses in Ontario if you assume the same rate would have maintained throughout that time, and about 700,000 times more people than have died from MDMA overdoses in the Toronto scene.

And the Sun runs on the front cover, NO MORE DEAD TEENS, as if rave-parties are a wasteland of overdosing kiddies... see, the world is just utterly corrupt.

I maintain my original position; the war on drugs is an artificial war intended to divert people's attention away from real issues, and justifying the expense of hundreds of millions of tax dollars on policing and incarcerating non-violent, otherwise law-abiding citizens in its name.

It need not be said that incarceration is entirely ineffective as a means of punishment, that the whole of Good Society's effort to stop the evil drugs has been entirely futile and unproductive, or that there's a very good chance that someone now dead would be alive today if he had been properly educated about what is known about MDMA and been able to obtain the drug as a standardized, professionally manufactured dose of pure, lab-tested drug. Ask your doctor before using this product; use only as directed, do not exceed recommended dose.

Munchkin

Wow. This is really weird. Yesterday My mom called me and told me that I know the boy that died at Big Bud. That's pretty scary. Several pills!! Education! He just needed education. It's so not fair that this happened. 16 is way too young to die. It's quite sad.

Munchkin

Jess

two million people have died...yet, it's hidden, because if the truth were told it would be detrimental (sp?)

it's amazing, and extremely scary what certain aspects of society are capable of doing

it scares me to think of all that i don't know, and may never know

"yeah, 2 million people have died, in a genocide in sudan, but we like oil, so let's do another front page story on why raves are bad, and let's make sure we reiterate that all people do is have sex and do drugs and listen to pounding music at rave parties, we have proven through our studies that over 80% of party goers are under the age of 15 and on drugs such as ecstasy which ranges from $30-$50 a pill. how did we determine they were on drugs? well, it was kind of hard but we tried to see the size of every body's pupils and if they were enlarged, or if they were acting excessively happy, they were marked down as "being high" we know this isn't the most effective way to do things, but we don't want to get to close to them...sometimes we do find the most intoxicated kid inside and ask him/her for their opinion, they usually can't say much"

this in my opinion is all the media has done...especially in the US, and the media that was running fair stories with accurate portrayals of raves have stopped, because it's old now, the media that feels raves are still evil, don't seemt o want to stop

thank you roches, for another shocking, and educational post

i always keep my eyes peeled for your posts, whether i agree with you or not, i always find them interesting to read

baby frEak

sad but true fact,
no drug use is responsible drug use.....
I dont care what anyone says, unless you're aware of exactly what the chemicals are and how much you're ingesting, its really not all that responsible is it?
I'm glad I stopped touching e when I did. its a fucking dirty drug.
much love and hugz
Pamela

andielips

I have read what you all have wrote about that poor kid and what everyone had to say about "E" and I think that you all have very good points and I believe that you all are right!!!!! I truly believe that we all make choices and have to suffer the consequences good and bad and learn from our mistakes. I have read and researched and read some more all the info I could find on "e" good and bad, I really try to educate myself about the drug and weigh the consequences. But I am no better then anyone else and I have no idea if the next pill I buy is going to be the one that will teach me the lesson that needs to be learned. BUT I still choose to do what I do because it is my choice and I am responsible for me!!!! And as long as we all take responsibility for ourselves we can't point fingers. Just be carefull guys and always remeber to take care of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Andielips

__________________
*******ALWAYS REMEMBER TO TAKE CARE OF YOU!!!!!!!********

Everybodies_Daddy

Sad that he died, yes.

But it was his own fault. He took a risk, calculated or not, and lost. Bigtime.

He died because he made a conscious choice.

Had he been better educated, he may not have taken the drugs, and therefore lived.

He wasn't, he did, and now everyone he knows is paying for it.

MCED