RaverPrincess

Clearly you have never once gone to the TRIP website, or to DanceSafe's website and actually learned what it is that they do. You have just proved that you are yet one more person in this world who are WILLING to be ignorant. Before you go making any statement that TRIP and DanceSafe don't work - why don't you go and find out what it is that they are trying to do first? I have been trying my best not to come off sounding like I'm attacking you personally, but I can't help this one - you are ignorant. These groups are not part of the "Just Say No" movement - they acknowledge that drugs are bad but that kids are going to do them anyway and show these kids the safest way possible to do them. So for me, just by you saying something THAT misinformed, judgemental, and ignorant - I don't care for anything else you have to say until you can show that you are at least looking into all the information before making a statement.
We're all entitled to our own opinions and I do respect how strongly you stick to yours, but an opinion is nothing but hot air without something to back it up and without informing yourself first.
www.dancesafe.org
www.erowid.com
www.torontoraverinfoproject.ca
--- EDUCATE YOURSELF!!!!!

RoB-B

woah
you cant go calling me ignorant

you cant leave it up to the users of these drugs to go find the website, and talk to them. Cause it will never happen.

trip and dancesafe needs to go attack the problem,

I have been to the websites thank you very much, so dont go talking shit unless you really know the truth.

I know they arent just say no, that they recognize the problem. They will tell kids what is a safer dose is they want to do it. Tell them what is in their pills if they want to know.

But thats not going to stop the problem.

calling me ignorant just proves how ignorant you are.

this wanst about personal attacks until you made it.

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http://baselinestudios.com/new_toplogo.gif

Polina

wow i have a lot to say to this thread but i will limit my slef.


First off, I think, or KNOW even that if i would have never went to a rave I would have never tried ANY chemicals EVER. They have changed me, for the worse mostly and this is why i party regret ever going to a rave. Its true that raves are a HUGE gateway for drugs, and NO ONE should even be arguing that. Its so easy to get lost in everything esspecially at a young age... i dont even think some of you realise how hard it is for someone EXTREMLY young to NOT get carried away. I mean take a look at some of the 17-25 year olds, some of them cant handle themselves as it is. Its even harder for someone with absolutly no responsibilities and maturity to realise whats going on.

Next, i think from what i have seen it only takes some one younger then 17 a few times of taking E to get hooked.. when i say that i dont mean addicted i mean seduced BY EVERYTHING.. i have to admit it is amazing.. and the truth is that those organizations only have up untill the time they are "hooked" to convince them other wise. I for one what not told.. no one even cared.. i got the occasional "but, you are soo young" line and that was it.. it was not untill i saw what it did to me. it made me a completly different person and i was obligated to try and get "unhooked" all on my own.. and I did not get very much suport from my "drug loving friends" who were convinced that i would never have a good time sober. Now i am happy to say that i dont do any drugs period. but not many people seem to be as willing as me to stop doing drugs. and i completly understand. i mean some people have been partying for 8 years and have not once been sober. I have been partying for less then a year and it was hard enough.


My point is that poeple younger a lot of the time dont even see a point in stopping. And sure, its a perfect escape from the stress of highschool, parents and friends. I think that if a person if really comitted to stopping they will. otherwise no one! no organization, no nothing is going to make them stop.
I always see people 15-17 fucked out of their minds at there first party, and it is just disgusting. Part of me wants to kill the friend who let them take the drugs. A lot of the time they are so fucked up they are litterally screaming for help. You dont know how many times i had sat down with people and talked to them. they are soo confused. Its there first party and not only are they overwhelmed by the atmosphere but by the drugs as well.

ahh dont know what to say.. i hate drugs. I HATE THEM

i also hate how some people who truly have NO idea of what is like for someone young and on drugs, begin to lecture. I cant say i know where they are coming from because i have never been in your position.. so what makes them think they know where the "fucked up younger" person is coming from

__________________

If you can imagine it, you can create it. If you can believe it, you can become it

Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.

RaverPrincess

Yeah it truly is terrifying to see the amount of drugs some young kids are doing. I see them at parties and just feel so afraid for them. I don't think anyone here is saying that any abuse of drugs is good or saying that drugs don't mess up people's lives. But I just honestly can't accept people using that as a good reason to shut down a rave. As many people in this thread have already stated, it won't make the drugs go away, it will just make them go further into dangerous places. And I do think that organizations like TRIP and DanceSafe DO make a difference, but there are actually people in the US and Canada who are trying to make it illegal for these groups to actually go into raves and make a difference. Last I heard, there were states who were trying to charge these harm reduction groups with trafficking and other ridiculous charges. I think THAT is why we aren't seeing as much change from them as we could.

I don't know how this went from being a discussion on the pros and cons of criminalizing raves to being a discussion about the pros and cons of doing drugs. I think that doing drugs is something personal and not everyone is going to have the same effect or the same life experiences from them - and there's no way to say that they are ALL good or ALL bad.

There are ways to save these young kids from drugs without penalising an entire subculture. It is a quick fix that won't stop young kids from doing drugs. They will find other ways, and other drugs. It's scary but it's true.

__________________
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.

RoB-B

Parents and polititians who are against raves are against them because of the drug use that goes on.(hopefully)
They dont care that people dance and party and have a good time.
They dont care about the pros to raves, they see drugs being taken and they focus on that.

So what, people dance and have a good time, does that justify the drug use??
No.
You cant win the argument that we have a good time and dance so its ok for us to do drugs.


Now back to the people can do what they want to their own body. Drugs are dangerous.

What about that person who takes and E and dies because of something in it. They didnt choose to do that to themself. They chose to get high. Or the person who is so high they have no control and start taking more and more E's, and they OD. Did they want this to happen as well?
So to these people, are drugs good? They did it to themselves right?

RaverPrincess

Yes they did it to themselves.
No one is trying to justify the drug use at raves, but does the drug use justify making it criminal for me to go to the one place where I can hear the music I love, and be with people who also enjoy the music and the community? The answer is no. If you think that raves cause so much harm to people's lives, then just don't go. Everyone makes a personal choice to go to a rave or not. They also make the choice to do whatever they end up doing there. Don't make ME a criminal because SOMEONE ELSE makes a bad decision. Everyone needs to be accountable for their own actions.

Nadine

DynamicHalfDuo

If you want to shut down raves for drug use, you must also consider legislation shutting down -

Grateful Dead concerts
NORML political rallies
Every bar
Every club
Fraternity parties
George Bush's college career

Why? Because at every one of these venues, drugs are prominant and easy to come by, used frequently and dominating the scene - more so, in some cases, than at raves. I tried coke once (didn't like it) and it was just something everybody at a fraternity party was doing, right along with their beer.
Speaking of beer, where is the outrage for alcohol? Alcoholism destroys lives on a scale that blows away ecstasy, LSD, K, and marijuana combined...but I guess since it's taxable it's ok and should be allowed to continue, especially at establishments whose sole stated purpose is selling alcohol with no pretenstions of anything else.... Just a curious double standard, to me.

You have a responsibility for your own body and mind. If you think drugs are bad, don't do them. It's that simple. And DanceSafe and TRIP would be much more effective if they didn't have to tiptoe around like a cat in a rocking chair factory for fear of saying one wrong word and being busted for TRAFFICKING, when all they are doing is trying to make the scene safer in light of persistant drug use allegations.

__________________
Nocturnal Commissions - Hardcore with a Smile

RoB-B

the reason the government doesnt like dancesafe and trip is because even though they are helping educate people, they are putting thoughts into kids heads that its ok to do drugs, just be safe about it.

I know their intentions, you do, but most people do not.

And for them not having the dont do drugs attitude, they are part of the cause.

anyways, no one is budging in this debate, and everyone is just repeating everyone. it was nice chatting with ya.

DynamicHalfDuo

lol...agreed, we are all rehashing the same stuff over now. Who's up for heading out to the pub and chilling out?

*raises hand* Well, I'm in anyway.

RoB-B

lets go do some E.......xercising

like some bball
theres not way im coming to buffalo though, i got a 20 page list on why and bad experiences

Polina

Rob-- i am really glad to hear that you think the way you do on this issue (drug wise)

RoB-B

trust polina
im in the same boat as you now
i fucking hate drugs
HATE
its just a matter of getting away from them

Commander Keen

Long thread..... I only read the last half of page 3.

Hard to reply to this thread becasue so many interesting points have been made, but I'll try.

First off, Dancesafe/TRIP and other organizations who promote harm reduction; are they part of the problem? It depends on your perepective. From a anti-drug position one could argue that if you're not arguing against drugs then you're part of the problem. It's a tactic used by many hardlined policies that forces people to take sides and only see issues in black or white. Dancesafe is an organization that remains neutral somewhat as it doesn't clearly take a side on the debate and instead chooses to educate the population (this is harmreduction philoisophy). So does dancesafe promote drug use? Not necessarily, but it's often frowned upon as it refuses to moralize the issue (to say that it's bad).

As for the Rave Act.... laws like these pose many many problems regarding civil liberities. Legislators state that if one doesn't have anything to hide then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. The problem is that a lot of people do have stuff to hide (far more than most people realize). Current drug laws are sufficent to deal with the "drug problem" (whether there is an actual problem is another issue), yet the legislators feel as though it is necesary to target a specific social group even when the legislators claim that it is perfectly legal to dance to electronic music.
I am not well versed in this piece of legislation, but I assume that the premise of the law is that if a officer finds someone who is in posession of narcotics then the officer has the power to shut down the whole event (or even charge the patrons of the event under the crackhouse law). As we have seen in the Wisconsin incident, laws of this type is far too broad and targets too large of a group. When the legislators said that if you ahve nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about, they neglected to mention that it only applies to non ravers. Several hundred of patrons of the Wisconsin event were issued fines of nearly a thousand dollars, but had done nothing wrong (some just arrived at the event).

The Rave act is a "blunt insturment" as it is "intended" to target drug users (is suppsoed to) but in reality it affects a much larger social group, mainly ravers and the promoters.

The question is, are the legislators really targeting the drug abusers? is it necesary to legislate raves? Do the legislators have the best interests of their citizens at heart?

Commander Keen

Kay I just read the rest of the thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rob-B, from what I have read you appear to have the opinion that the end justifies the means. To "save the children" from drugs we should ban raves because people get addicted to drugs at these events. Whether this is true or not (tho I'm pretty sure that it does happen), I'm inclined to disagree with this opinion, that infact the ends do not justify the means. Suppose that by banning raves it does infact save some childrens lives (by saving I mean not exposing them to chemical drugs). I would argue that by banning raves it would cause harm because it would be an unjust limitation of our social freedoms.
I for one am against a totalatarian government; a government who tells us what we can and cannot do; a government who will judge our lifestyle; a government who is willing to tramp on the rights of the minority to please the majority.

My point is that banning raves isn't wrong because children will be saved. My problem is that such a law can hardly be defended using constitutional objective means.

If one could answer yes to the question "are raves by themselves inherently dangerous?" then perhaps such a law would be valid. (this leads to the question of whether the definition of a rave includes drugs, or are the two issues seperate, if drugs are involved then to what extent? more or less than at a concert of a similar size?).

DynamicHalfDuo

Cool...I don't have to say antything else. Commander Keen covered it all. And I, by the way, am geeky enough to remember the original Commander Keen and his Yorps.

Polina

I am sure you will be able to do it. I know its going to be a lot harder for you then from me, but i KNOW you could do it. What really matters is that you have realised what a piece of shit they are.
meh i dont mean to sound like a shrink.


Ah i feel the same way as you..
I wish drugs never existed,
i regret the day i touched it.

xRaVeRx

**DRUGS** OMG!! --^
sorry to butt into your convo, but I HATE THEM TO!!
biggest waste of time EV-ER!! Espically smoking (cigarettes)..
soo expensive now-a-days!! S[]-[]IT!! *sigh* when will ppl learn?
aw well--its they're choice in life!!

xRaVeRx

--AND WEED SHOULDN'T BE LEGALIZED EVER------

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-----{}- They call me, Ri.N.P -{}-----

Troile

Ok don't take this as me supporting drugs.

Your attitudes, esp xRaverx's is horrible. The whole drug thing aside...it isn't healthy to make up your mind about whether something is good or bad and judge others for liking it. Once you decide that something is bad then obviously if someone likes it then there must be something wrong with them.

Each person is very different from everyone else...different enough to have totally different likes/dislikes and have different things benefit or malign them.

Thats horrible...

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http://www.xphox.net/daveoftherave/DAVEoftheRAVE-4oClockInTheMorning.mp3

Polina

I dont see how my attiude was horrible. I have made a PERSONAL desition to not use drugs, Not once did i say ANTHING that was directed towards people who do use drugs.
Also, I agreed with Rob, so i said that i agreed with him and i am glad he feels that way, and i was supporting him in his decision. Everyone has the right not not agree with what another person does, i would never judge a person on it (unless it was somthing that effected a persons personality) I think that is what ryan ment when he said that. He has his own opinions, just like you do. I dont see one thing that could come out of feeling negitivly towards the use of drugs..

Troile

My ranting was pretty much directed at xRaverx.

He said that drugs are horrible and everyone else should really realize that...but if they don't learn then he'll still be ok with it.

He has made the decision that something is bad and if someone else doesn't agree with that then they're just deluded or ignorant...

I'm sorry...that isn't cool.

RaverPrincess

I think Commander Keen has said it all...But even if the powers that be think that they are saving kids' lives by trying to shut down raves, don't they see that for every one life they MIGHT save, they are putting 10 more in danger?

And as for the drug argument that somehow seeped its way into this thread, doing drugs is a personal decision and not every person who does them is going to become an addict. I do E once a month or so whenever I'm at a party. I do maybe 1-2 pills at a party, and never have I done any other drug. I don't think that anyone whether they be a fellow raver or a politician has the right to tell me what I can and cannot do to my own body. If someone has something against drugs or has made a personal choice not to do them - more power to ya. But don't think to lecture anyone else or make a judgement about someone else simply because YOU have taken some bad paths in your lives.

Nadine

xRaVeRx

wait, wait..I was just saying my opinion!! MY OPINION!
everyone is allowed they're opinion..no matter how bad someone may think it is!
I THINK<-- DRUGS ARE STUPID AND BAD! but hey, fi you wanna do them! Be my guess...i have friends who do them so im not anit- drug! i do chill round drugs all the time to...I jus haven't been brought into thr drug scene!
AND I DIDN'T DIRECT MY COMMENTS TO ANYONE!!
Ya *sigh* ...when *someone* does drugs..they're killing themselves! Thats where the sigh comes in...
I LVOE LIFE..AND HATE TO SEE IT WASTED!! that was my point!
sorrie if i offended you..but thats how i feel!

xRaVeRx

Commander Keen

A lot of problems with the war on drugs is that once people start using drugs for recreational purposes it is almost immediately put on the DEA schedule list (listed as a controlled substance).

So the question is why are these drugs controlled?? because they are inherently harmful?? or because the legislators cannot tolerate intoxication?

If you examine the history of current drug laws, you'll notice that many of the laws weren't passed solely based on the belief that the drug itself was harmful. Quite often these laws were passed to target certain social groups.

Example, in the 19th century Canada, a lot of Chinese were employed by the government to help build the railway. The Chinese were willing to work hard for lower pay than the average Canadian worker. At first this was desirable as a huge labour force was necessary to accomplish this task. However after the railway was complete the establishment (the whites) were unhappy with the Chinese as thye were willing to work hard for less money. As a result the Whites could not compete with the Chinese. In addition to racially based laws, they made smoking opium a crime as another way of prosecuting the Chinese.

Prohibition was also tried in the early 20th. These "moral entrepeneurs" believed that living a sober life was necessary in defeating our enemies. As we all know prohibition did not last long. My theory is that prohibition failed becasue too many people liked to drink. Such laws only work when there is an oppressing force and an oppressed force. The oppressor must always be more powerful than the oppressee.

This brings us to Maruijuana. Similar moral entrepeneurs tried to prohibit Marijuana. Onew could say that the drug was associated with Black Jazz culture. The film reefer maddness was created to spread the word of the immorality of marijuana, how it would drive us mad, to murder and act permiscious.

As you know, the current prohibition movement has taken a 180 in recent years. A rather large portion of the population does smoke pot on a regular basis and as a result the oppressed group has slowly become the majority, or at the very least a large numbered minority.

Marijuana users have grown huge and can no longer be suppressed, the social group that was once identifiable is no longer, just about people in all walks of life smoke pot.

My point is that drug laws, or more generally morally based laws are not rarely solely based on the good it will bring. More often these laws target a socal group.

Laws like the RAVE act will persist because they are targetting a very specific and easily identifiable social group.

Whew that was a lot of typing

RoB-B

ugh, i was trying to avoid this, but i just am to damned opiniative.

The sad thing is they can tell you, its whether you listen is a different story.
And they are telling you not to do them because you are harming your self and could POSSIBLEY be putting others in danger. And i dont care what anyone says, you are harming your body.
Why do you think they have laws on possesion of drugs, its so people will be scared to have them and wont do them.

Keen, i agree with what you said about banning opium to prosecute the chineese, but your comparison is a little out dated.
We know a lot more about what drugs physically and mentally to people, and i beleive laws passed these days are from those reasons.

As for the marijuana. i think everyone is starting to understand that its not as harmful as once thought by the leave it to beaver generation.
I think they are more concerned about people driving high or doing something else that puts people in danger.
I know 5 million people think they drive fine high, i think i drive fine high as well. But the fact it it slows down reaction time and some people just CANT drive high.

Premarital sex, drinking under age, smoking week, these were once all big no no's. It seems like everything once bad, is no becoming exeptable.
I just dont see a safe world when everyone can be high all the time. Not saying it will happen.
I think the power of humanities urge to rebel will always win over any battle of morals.