DynamicHalfDuo

Why do I not think there is too much drug use at raves? It's rather easy, and fits in well with my libertarian philosophy.

You were born into this world in a human body - YOUR body. You can do what you like with that body, and who am I to tell you that just because I think something is bad or wrong that YOU can't do it? When you take that pill, you are putting chemicals into your body because YOU want to. Is that wrong? It's not my call - it's your body and your decision.

So yes - it is perfectly acceptable for people to do the amount of drugs that they do at raves (which, as we've all pointed out, is hardly above the amount done on a friday night at your local club). Maybe you disagree with me, and that's fine - but you have NO right to stop me from doing drugs at a rave, or to shut down the rave because you just happen to think drugs are "bad" (which is a moral judgement and therefore cannot - MUST not - be legislated).

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RoB-B

valid point

who am i to say what is wrong and what is right, if you want to hurt your body you are entitled to.

But, drugs do change people, and not for the better.

And people changing for the worst affects everyone whether directly or indirectly, therefore we have the right to mak judgment call and tell a person they are wrong.

for example, your best friend does alot of drugs, runs out of money, starts stealing, ends up stealing from you. Although he has the right to do this to himself, i can make a judgment call.

This is wrong, he stole from you, because of drugs.

Although this is the extreme, smaller things such as someone being all sketched out and in a bitchy mood, still effects everyone.

Im having a hard time putting my thoughts into words, i hope this makes sense.

You have the right to do whatever you want to yourself, but if it is effecting others, then you shouldnt have the right to do it.

On another note, drugs do go on at clubs, but no where near as much as raves, its different cultures, their are the select few who do do drugs, but the majority of people dont. At raves the majority of people do.

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Phlux

What's your definition of a Rave? The problem is, the rave scene has expanded in so many ways how can you really define what is or isn't a rave. What about a party in a field like OM? On a beach? In a club?

The problem with the Rave act is it doesn't differentiate between these types of events, yes, maybe there is too much drug use at certain events, but what about the events where drug use isn't a problem? I've been to plenty of these, they DO exist.

What the Rave Act will do is uniformly outlaw any and all types of events in the US that feature electronic music, regardless of wheather people are taking drugs at them or not, and that is wrong.

End of story...

RoB-B

i agree with you 100%

they law will fuck alot of shit up, maybe some people seriously in the culture should go to meetings and talk to city councils or whomever puts them on.

And tell them what is what. If know one does anything, then obviously the wrong parties are going to be shut down. How are the supposed to know. When the next meetings come around, YOU SHOULD GO, and tell them. Explain the difference. Bitcing about it wont do any good.

Troile

lol


I'm just saying that you have to accept responsibility for your own decisions. Not just put the blame elsewhere.

Its the morality of it all. Many years ago the view of soceity was that pre-marital sex was horrible. And not even close to being healthy for you. But did they shut down every environment that could induce such activity? Of course not..why? Because people have freedoms. It isn't soceity's role to tell you what you can and can not listen to...where you can and can not go etc etc.

You just have no way to prove this is true. Since this in an absolute statement I'll tell you that it is wrong. Maybe you should change it to *most* people? I can't really argue with that since I don't know most people.

You had a bad experience with drugs. You blame it on raves. 1 person's negative experience doesn't justify taking away other people's freedoms.

Now I didn't want to get personal but I think its obvious that your arguement is based upon what happened to you personally. I had a very positive reaction to raves and drug use. I used to be a big junky. Nothing really harsh but I did drugs a lot. After I started going to raves I really cutback. Its been 7mos now and the more I go the more I cut back. I just don't have much of a use for them anymore. I dance. Dancing to me is the best feeling in the world. I've been sober for 9 weeks now. (yes I include alcohol...alcohol is a drug and it really hurts people.) And I'm loving every minute of it. I won't be sober forever. I'm taking this at my own pace.

You sound very much like a friend of mine who used to be a coke addict. He rants on and on about how bad drugs are and anything which has a connection to drugs b/c he had a really bad experience. Of course he drinks multiple times a week. He doesn't view alcohol as bad for him though b/c it is legal. Of course that is his decision to make. Eventually he probably won't be a drunkard anymore and that experience will shape who he is. Not everyone becomes a coke head. I'm sorry that you did. Coke is very bad for you. That doesn't mean that all *raves* should be shut down. I'm sorry but your arguement just doesn't hold much merit.

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RoB-B

first of all
ive done all the drugs, but i was never an addict
and im just just basing this on myself, ive been around for a long time and have seen alot of bad things happend cause of drugs.

Doing chemicals DOES have a phsycoloigal effect on a persons brain if they do enough.

Some one who does E once a month, obviously wont have that much of a change, but someone who does E alot will have a very low seritona??? level, will be a different person, because their mood is not normal, and there level will never be as high as it once was.

How can you say a mind altering drugs has no effect on a persons emotions of personality??

What goes up, must come down

RoB-B

from what ive heard and read about, it takes 2 weeks for your seritona level to reach is slightyly lowered max
if someone does E every week, it wont have a chance to fully recover.
I know you know deep down inside drugs change people, not everyone, maybe the change is very noticable, but it does.

RaverPrincess

Ok...First, Rob, let me say that yes you are right - drugs affect people's lives. Now I am not so naive as to think that they don't - but not all the effects are negative. Some people may have had bad experiences with drugs but some people have had amazing experiences with drugs.

I guess it's frustrating to read your posts sometimes because your responses are very self centered, very narrow minded if not closed-minded. I honestly don't think you are truly comprehending what everyone here is basically saying. So, as much as I hate people who type in caps lock, let me put it in bold letters and small words and maybe, just maybe, you'll understand.

PEOPLE NEED TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. IF SOMEONE DOES DRUGS AT A RAVE, THAT IS THEIR DECISION. THE RAVE MAY HAVE BEEN SOMEWHERE WHERE THERE IS EASY ACCESS TO DRUGS BUT THEY STILL MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO DO WHATEVER DRUG THEY DO. SHUTTING DOWN RAVES BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE MAKE STUPID DECISIONS IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE ANYTHING.

And we aren't saying that drugs at raves should be ok because there are drugs everywhere else - we are saying that if you are going to shut down raves altogether because there are drugs involved fine, but make sure you do that across the board - with everything that is involved with drugs - bars, clubs, campus pubs, high school dances, and anything else where there is easy access to drugs.

And, Rob, you have some nerve calling ANYONE ELSE dipshit or dense...no need to get defensive because someone called you on your lack of accountability for YOUR own dipshit choices! Oh and Rob, I just wanted to point out that as I was browsing around the boards, I came across a thread about someone's birthday event that was held not too long ago. You said that you wanted to go but had no ride or something to that effect - what were you thinking? Don't you know you'll become a drug addict if you go to that party??

Nadine

Phlux

Actually, I' ve been working with the Drug Policy Alliance in the US. We've been petitioning various US senators and we've also begun a letter writing campaign. Since I don't live in the US, I can't really attend meetings or forums but I've been doing what I can to help. It's nice to see a grass roots movement forming in the US, let's hope it's successful.

I encourage everybody to visit the Drug Policy Alliance action centre and get involved, their website is.

http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/

We have to show our politicians that the Rave Scene is a ligitimate community and should be treated as such. Remember, we're voters too!

DynamicHalfDuo

"You have the right to do whatever you want to yourself, but if it is effecting others, then you shouldnt have the right to do it."

In the example you gave, that person clearly committed a crime - stealing - for which he or she should be punished. Simultaneously punishing the thousands of drug users who have never stolen for drug money is not just simplistic - it's ethically and legally wrong.

You say that when they take drugs and that puts them in a bitchy mood it affects other people, so it's bad. What about when it puts them in a good mood? Can we only focus on the negatives of drug use? DRUGS ARE FUN! That's why they are still in use.

If you want to use personal experience as a factor...I would say the easiest time I've ever had procuring X was at a club in Buffalo, simply because everybody had it. And of the dozens of people I know at my school who use drugs heavily (I can think of very, very few people who have never at least socially smoked weed), none of them has let it get out of control and "fuck up their life."

You made an interesting point, but I don't think it's a defensible one.

Phlux

We're trying to have a serious debate here about a real issue and along you come blabbering about how drugs are fun and delightful. You're pretty much validating what Rob-B is saying about the problem with the Rave Scene. You're not helping.. Drugs are bad, mmmmmk... Nobody's arguing that, except you..

DynamicHalfDuo

And NORML, and the Green Party, and dozens of other concerned groups.

It's easy to blindly accept the "normal" view of things, and even easier to call anyone who challanges that view "not serious," "missing the obvious," and even stupid.

The point I wanted to make was two fold -

A) You cannot justify shutting down an entire subculture because of a percieved problem;

B) You should seriously question whether or not that perceived problem is a problem at all.

You could just repeat the "drugs are bad we all know that so it must be true" mantra... but if that kind of thinking had ruled humanity we'd all still KNOW the Earth was flat and KNOW that certain groups of people are supposed to be slaves and KNOW that monarchy is the best kind of government.

I'd think any kind of "serious debate" should be open minded to different viewpoints instead of blindly spouting the party line. But, that's just my opinion.

RoB-B

im not blindly spouting our scene

i know there are many positive sides to it

but to the positive sides outway the nagative sides?
8 hours of fun, in return, 3 days of feeling like death, then another week of still not feeling quite yourself.
millions of brains cells killed(which it seems everything kills bra ins cells these days, better not hold in a sneeze).

I told you the stealing scenario was extreme. Lets say your down the next day cause you did 3 E's, you are talking to your gf, and you snap on her over something so stupid, but it was triggerd because youw ere so down from drugs. Or you tell at your mom and make her upset.
Nornally you wouldnt do such a thing, but you cant help it when you have no seritona left, because thats what happens.

I understand this theory of how its your body, so you can do what you want with it. But it seems kind of primitive.
YES, i know, you can do what you want with it, but reality, you will be punished for it.
drugs are fun, but they ar bad.

If you could take the amount of drugs done, or cut it back alot from the scene, there would be no problem. But when a 16 year old is popping 3 E's and a vial of k, people have the right as caring beings, to want to stop this happening to their youth.

RaverPrincess

Dynamic, I'm totally with you...there is nothing wrong with saying that drugs can just as easily make you happy as they can make you unhappy. This isn't about whether drugs are good or bad, it's about whether or not any political/judicial power should be able to dictate to individuals what their morals should or shouldn't be. As well, it's about whether or not this subculture that every one of us is a part of should be blamed and consequently shut down because it has ties to drugs.

Nadine

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RaverPrincess

What does whether you feel sketchy after doin E have to do with whether or not raves should be criminalized? If you don't want to feel sketched out, and you don't want to risk being crabby, then DON'T DO DRUGS...It's not like doing drugs is necessary before admittance to a rave - geezus, it's a personal choice to do drugs or not and simply walking into a rave does not mean you are going to do drugs. You do it if you choose to, and if you don't like the aftereffects or the consequences then just don't do it. Sheesh.

Nadine

RaverPrincess

"But when a 16 year old is popping 3 E's and a vial of k, people have the right as caring beings, to want to stop this happening to their youth."

How about as caring beings, we educate these kids instead of telling them that they don't have to be accountable for their actions. Telling society that raves are the cause of their kids doing drugs is teaching these kids that it wasn't their fault and that they don't need to take responsibility for it. I'd rather, as a caring being, teach my children to be intelligent and to take ownership of what they do. And I'd also, as a caring being, like to have my children grow up in a society where they are free to express themselves and not where the government dictates to them what they can and cannot do for enjoyment.

Nadine

Troile

As far as the witch hunt against Rob-b is concerned...Though I don't appreciate being called a 'dipshit' apart from that I don't see how he's saying anything thats really bad. I think he's getting too personal for the good of his arguement but *meh*. Someone has got to be the devil's advocate. This arguement has reminded me of what I really love about raving.

Ok since we're fully into the personal side of things I'll give the other viewpoint. Drugs as a whole have had a very positive impact on me. I know what you're thinking...you just think they have! haha. But no they really have. I won't get into the drama of all of it...Of course they've been negative too. I abused pot for a while. That wasn't a good idea. Knowing how it feels to be positive is very important. So I've turned my life around from what it used to be and drugs were a crutch to get me through that time. Now I feel I can get by w/o them. I don't know where I'd be w/o drugs...probably nowhere good. I don't see how being a 'user/abuser' of any non-medicinal drug can be positive...but then I'm not everyone else

Hmmm...9 hours...6+ spent dancing like a mad man..1 spent talking to tons of great people and having tons of people boost my ego by randomly telling me how cool I am *grin* and 2 spent dead on the floor re-gaining my energy by munchin' on some sugar. So in return...I'm dead tired. I have to drive home the next day but I always manage to rope someone into talking to me all the way home. After party talks are the best btw. Hmmm so I get home and sleeeeppp...B/c I've landed a job with every weekend off...ya! The next week work goes by amazingly fast b/c I've danced all my stress away. The rude customers...the burns...the bitchy co-workers...all the crap in life doesn't bug me so much and its easy money.

But yes I've done e before...Ok so my jaw might hurt for a day or two afterwards but I find that I'm too warm and fuzzy to do anything but smile at people. *shrug* Maybe I don't/never did enough e? I don't have a problem with that though. For me drugs were all about bursting boundaries in my way of thinking...it let me think from a different angle...open up new feelings and thoughts so I can broaden my horizon. Of course doing the same drug twice often doesn't open any new doors, it just gets you high. Which for some people can be something muchly needed...it can also lead to dependancy. Kind of like if you need to stay awake one night you drink a coffee...but if you drink too much coffee then it stops becoming a tool and instead is something that you need to stay at a normal level.

And the 16 year old coke head who nobody sees? At least the 16 yr old e-tard is visual to a lot of people and has potential support all around him. The 16 yr old crackhead is all alone and trapped. Nobody sees him though. And no I'm not saying...see its just as bad. Instead I'm trying to show that the 16 yr old drug addict is going to happen without help from the rave scene. Shutting down raves won't help stop drug addicts. At least e isn't addicting (I mean of course it can be...but it isn't an 'addicting drug' like nicotine, coke, heroin, ketamine, alcohol etc. are)

RaverPrincess

Hahahaha yeah I guess I do seem to have gone on a bit of an "anti-Rob" campaign. I mean nothing personal against him, but if he is going to come on here and say that raves make people drug addicts or ruin their lives he HAS to expect some hostility. Especially when he is an active part of this scene. If he truly believes what he has said in this thread then he, theoretically, wouldn't even be on this board let alone still be an active partier. I am kind of glad though that someone has been the devil's advocate. It's made for some interesting conversation.

Troile

Yes this thread is great

It feels good to read posts by other people reiterating my own feelings on the matter.

I think it all boils down to the 20/20:dateline:cnn:mis-information network of the world. Everything that is in the mass media is engineered to give certain views and opinions. Its the political machine. Right now all drugs must be given the feeling that they are as bad as heroin. My mother thinks marijuana is made in a laboratory...its sad I know. Not everyone is so naive about pot but most are naive when it comes to most of the drugs out there. The point is...People who want to think something that is outside the political machine must fend for themselves. We've got to spread the info and talk and just think among ourselves (not just ravers mind you...anyone that wants to have a thought that the media doesn't cover). Thats why the vibe is so good. But as the scene moves mainstream the outward attitude must become more politically correct otherwise we'll just be adding fuel to an already raging inferno. Just check out the last tracks on Chapter1 and Chapter7...it went from 'Wanting to get high' to 'I'm a raver not a crazy drug addict, just accept it'. Thats quite the big leap. The attitude hasn't changed I don't think...but the way we express anything has got to be politically correct so it isn't misconstrued. Like minded people know what not to blow out of proportion.

Ok so what was the point to of that seemingly off topic rambling? That information control is precisely the problem. The only talk about drugs that is allowed (other than pot now) is 'they're bad' and 'just say no'. So the idea is that if you even question about it you're already on the bad side. Thats the stigma it creates anyway...Nothing is really being controlled...just that certain things are being given stereotypes...so you are pre-judged if you try to learn about drugs. So you think...wow I'm bad...its not you, its just what tv has made you feel.

Yes a lot of kids only do their drugs at raves. Rob-b has said that its because of the amazing music, lights and especially the vibe that make people want to do the drugs. Well it is my opinion that w/o all of that these kids that need these drugs to feel good and have fun will be doing drugs they pick up on the streets all alone...and it will just make them feel 10 times worse. B/c there is no support from anyone outside of the scene they're in. At least they'll be in a scene that contains at least some caring people as opposed to an actual drug scene...like crack.

Boy did I not make any sense there. Oh well. I tried

Anything free thinking will always be just a tad bit underground. Everything needs to be politically correct nowadays in order to prevent fuel being added to the fire.

DynamicHalfDuo

You made complete sense. Particularly your excellent point that the image is such that if you even question the other side, you are already wrong. Sad, but very true.

Whatever happened to the scientific method?

RoB-B

non of you really listen to me

im not saying raves turn every kid into a drug addict, it turns some people into drug addicts, but not everyone.

Even one person becoming a drug addict is one to many

Raves are not the direct cause, but they are however a place that people want to do E at more than other places. Its a place to escape reality.
And it has come to the point where you hear rave, you associate drugs. Its almost expected, or acceptable, that people are going to do E at a rave. And i know alot of people dont do it no matter what, but thats different.

DynamicHalfDuo

"And it has come to the point where you hear rave, you associate drugs. "

No. It has come to the point where YOU hear rave, you associate drugs. I hear rave, and I hear 180+ BPM music thumping through my brain...hundreds of people having the time of their lives...likwid, poi, and a thousand other varieties of dance... sheer, unadulterated fun.

As far as even one drug addict being too many, I am compelled to respond that if being addicted to drugs is the problem, then the solution is to target the drugs and the people becoming addicted to them. Coming from one who has experimented with countless drugs and never become addicted...who has watched family members drop smoking cigarettes after 28 years just by going cold turkey and not doing it anymore...I have trouble seeing how people can become addicted unless they want to. And I further have trouble seeing how removing raves and the electronic music that they are largely responsible for is going to help. In fact, it seems a much more useful response would be helping those addicted to break the habit, and educating those not addicted about the dangers.

I'm not attacking you on this - your concern is noteworthy and compassionate, and that's rare, and you are standing by your statement - also rare in the face of direct confrontation. I just can't make the logical connection between banning an entire sub culture and alleviating an alleged drug problem.

Troile

It isn't your arguement that we have a problem with. It is your solution.

Not only will your solution not work...it just isn't ethical.

Some problems don't have cover-all easy solutions. And if this one does...its all about education. Of course that isn't going to happen...oh well.

RoB-B

point taken by all of you

Honestly, raves will always go on just in different scales.

Banning them COULD be a solution, and trust me, i would be just as heart broken as everyone else.

So then, the question is, how do we stop kids from doing as many drugs as they do at raves??
TRIP and all those other antidrug, or drug awareness groups in my belief have had little effect on the culture. Drugs are just like smoking or drinking, you tell people not to do it cause its bad, but they are still going to do it.

I dont see another possible solution, im trying to work with you here. But i just cant think of any other way, unless they can come up with some magical drug detector, then people will always be doing them.

Which to 99.999999 percent of the world, its bad. That .0000001 percent of people think they can do whatever they want to their body. So they dont count. (sarcasm)

So what is the answer?? or is there non, should we just let everyone go about their business and do alot of drugs??