RaverPrincess

First of all, DynamicHalfDuo - Amen to all that you have said!!
And to Rob-B, I understand your points completely, but like Dynamic says, instead of shuttin us down, the government needs to work with groups like TRIP and DanceSafe to ensure that these awful things stop happening. And Rob, when you say it takes time and hard work to look into DanceSafe and TRIP I totally agree. There is very limited access to these amazing organizations because they are seen as 'enablers' for us drug-crazed ravers....These organizations aren't out to preach that E is good OR to try and stop kids altogether. If they can stop kids, hey that's great, but the amazing thing about them is that they acknowledge that the drug is there, and they help these kids do it as safely as possible.

I agree with you, Dynamic, that they'll shut us down in a heartbeat for even the slightest reason, but they will never make clubs illegal and it's proven that there are more deaths, rapes, beatings, AND criminal activities at clubs than at raves. Society just spotlights the things that do happen at raves to make their point.

They can make raves as illegal as they want, but they will never go away. This scene has been around longer than some of the people on this board have been alive...lol. It isn't going anywhere. This generation of youth is passionate, intelligent, and connected to each other the way that our predecessors never were via the internet. We have, collectively, a very loud voice and we will not let any government take away our parties. Hmm wow was that ever corny...lol

I think we all agree on the principle that as they stand now, raves are not as safe or as healthy as they could be. But like Dynamic says, shutting them down is not a rational solution. It's a band-aid fix that isn't gonna last or work. I think taking steps like working with the TDSC and TRIP and DanceSafe is how we are going to make this scene as clean and safe as possible.

As for the legalizing and controlling of E in the way we have done with tobacco and alcohol, I am all for it. Like it was said previously, it would ensure that we were getting safe pills, because the majority of accidents that happen because of E is due to the fact that there was little or no actual MDMA in the pill. MDMA doesn't cause death, or at least no studies have show it yet, but the dirty pills on the streets DO cause deaths and injuries. So yeah, regulate it, control it, and hey a nice bonus that the gov always likes - TAX it to hell like they do everything else...But we all know they will never legalize it...well not anytime soon anyway.

Well I've said my piece...lol
Can't wait for your responses, guys!!

RoB-B

amsterdam is a different country with different people and different politics.

What works well in one country can fail miserabley in another. You could attempt it, but it would be risky.

I for one think canadas reputation as a friendly peacekeeping, get married, have 2.1 kids, a dog and a house with a picket fence sort of persona would clash huge with these on the shelve drugs.

why? One reason i bet would be because our counrty is so big large land wise, amsterdam is alto smaller, and its easier to uphold the laws in such a small area.

But i do see what you are saying.

i know drug use goes on at clubs, but the majority of clubs is stricly drinking. And using what you said about amsterdams low crime related drug rate, in canada, we are more accepting of drinking, and there are little alcohol related crimes, exept for ones related to driving.

Its all in waht sociaty beleives is acceptable, and drugs they do not.

But your points made me think, i see what you are saying, theoretically it may be true, but i dotn think it will happen

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RaverPrincess

yeah you made some good points about why canada will probly never legalize narcotics...

but about the alcohol, there have been countless underage liquor poisonings, underagers in bars, drinking and driving, rapes, beatings, and such that were all a direct result of alcohol. I just think that if they are going to condemn E and the rave scene for allowing E, then they should be fair and do it the same across the board. Take a good look at the bar scene, and they will see alot more dangers there than at a rave.

RoB-B

making E legal is like saying, "well, we could stop them, we mine as well join em"

not exactly, cause the use of E could be controlled, that only means people will do it more frequently and more per dose. And then what, wil they make coke, crystal, k, shrooms, all of them legal? Why stop at one drug when you can control the contents of all of them.

I beleive that people will ALWAYS be doing drugs at raves, no matter what the circumstances are. And if that means shutting down raves to save some kids, not all kids, from turing their brains into mush, then maybe it has to be done.

And if that means banning alcohol from clubs to prevent murders and deaths then hey, why should there always be the risk that some innocent girl (or guy) will get rapped.

Im sure alcohol gets just as much attention than if not more than drugs do.

SO what you are saying is, you cant ban raves because the drug use there hurts people because you dont ban alcohol which also hurts people. Its not a trade off, if you give my brother a cookie, you have to give me one.

The fact is, stopping places drug use is high, helps people. Alcohol and bars is a completely different topic.

I think i might have been a little to non cautious when i said banning raves will save kids lives.

i wrote it wrong, but what i was thinking was directed towards the drug usage, not the dancing and partying part.

RaverPrincess

You make it sound like dancing and partying is secondary to drugs in the rave scene. This discussion has gone from being about criminalizing raves to legalizing narcotics. That's not the main topic here. You seem to think that raves are the only place where there is mass amounts of drugs. I can tell you that I have been to countless numbers of bars where underage girls are doin lines in the bathroom, or they are outside smoking a joint in the parkin lot before, or they are poppin pills. You are just perpetuating this social stigma, this horrible myth that raves are a haven for drug addicts and shady dealers. Yes drugs are involved, but that is not why people rave. And if that's why YOU think people rave, then I still think you're on the wrong message board. You are doing what the politicians want us to do - focus on the one bad thing that goes on in the scene and blow it out of proportion. Yes there are alot of people there doing E but criminalizing raves will not stop that. They will go to outdoor venues, underground parties and they will do it and just be in even more danger. I have been to quite a few house parties where there were 16-17 year old kids popping a MASS amount of pills - and they have never been to a rave ever. They are there because we all enjoy the same music...so are you saying let's make electronic music illegal too since there are thousands of kids who have never raved that are into scary amounts of drugs? Shutting down raves will NOT solve the ecstasy problem. MDMA in itself very seldomly causes injuries or death, it's the misinformation of the kids doing the MDMA that causes them to get hurt. Let's make it easier for kids to access good and ACCURATE information, not myths or lies, but real objective information about Ecstasy. And let me tell you something, MDMA or E is the LEAST of our problems as far as drugs go. People are just scared of it because they don't know anything about it. It's new and it is very vulnerable to inaccurate information.

Raves are not the problem - it's just an easy target. That is my stance and I'm stickin with it. I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone on here that raves cause drug overdoses. Anyone with half a brain, or who knows anything about MDMA, knows that is just becoming an urban legend.

I would be curious to know how much accurate information YOU have or how much YOU know about the actual drug. Have you read the TRIP pamphlets, the books that are out there, and have you really looked in to this before making all these broad, misinformed comments? I don't mean that to be insulting, but I honestly would be curious to know what you really know about the drug itself. DOING the drug doesn't educate you on it, LEARNING about it does. I'm not making a judgement that you don't know what you're talking about or anything, I just want to know if you've gone so far to educate yourself as much as you can on the drug, or if you are just buying into the hype the government is giving us.

Nadine

DynamicHalfDuo

You ask if my advocating legalizing X logically implies that I also advocate legalizing all drugs. My answer: yes - to an extent. Decriminalization of narcotics - and in the case of the less dangerous ones, complete legalization - makes absolute sense to me and to a good many other people. It's called harm reduction, public education, and just plain ethical. What right does the government have to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own mind and body, of all things?

While you make a valid point, and your concern for the youth of the nations is rare and reassuring in these times, I cannot see the logic behind banning an entire subculture of music just because of a negative association formed largely from half-truths and misassociations by uninformed media and uncaring politicos. This is the nature of all things non-commercialized - we don't have a lot of money, which means we can't be controlled by commercial conglomerates, which means government (which is, itself, largely a facet of commercial conglomerates) fears us. This is the root of the problem facing the rave community in Washington and Ottawa.

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Phlux

That's where you are wrong... Politicians act in response to public opinion. When the public at large watch 20/20 on one of the three largest networks in the United States, and see a bunch of 14 year kids putting shit up their nose and running around various chemicals at a so called "rave" somewhere in butt-fuck America they get on the phone and call up their local state senators and tell them, "what the fuck is going on at these raves??".

So the senators react under pressure from the public and try to pass these half-assed bills through senate under the impression that they are dealing with something similar to crack houses. In reality, the rave scene has become a community in itself, and various special interest groups have been doing a great job at fighting against these absurd bills from passing through senate.

I'm not quite sure where your impression of raves have come from but it's wrong. Drugs are EVERYWHERE in the United States, not just at raves. I've been to small towns in the US where chemicals like Ketamine, Ecstacy and GHB are more pronounced then alcohol is with the youth. E has spread out of the rave scene and has become mainstream. It's as popular as ever and kids are doing it everywhere these days. Banning raves will do NOTHING to curb drug use in the US, the rave act is a sad attempt by politicians to react to strong political pressure from the public. to do something about the drug problem. Once again, American politicians are out of touch with the youth of America and have proven time and time again that they have NO idea how to deal with the drug problem.

starkid262002

Wow! i never thought i would see people fighting in the hullabaloo site. this is why i attended the rave-act protest in D.C. last year. it was beautiful, the people the music the parents there with there 25 yr. old sons/daughters. Yes drugs r a major problem when it comes to the government and the raves, but look what the topic does to everybody. Rob-B and Raverprincess you two sound like your going to kill each other, and everyone else. i mean i look up to you people. i am stuck down here in pittsburgh, pa were our scene is "a" club and like a hand full of candi-kids, we have lost our scen, our vibe what ever you wanna call it.

Yes i know that alot of ravers, party kids, clubers, college kids, and so on do the drugs and do alot of them. I admit i do them, and i aam fine. i also agree that it is the gov. concern about the drugs. i didnt know what a rave or "E" was until i graduated high school in 2001, and i know what it is like to see a 14 year old grinding a binky eyes rollin up in the back of her head and being felt up by 2 25 year olds at a party/club. yet the security didnt do anything, regretably niether did any of the party kids. and anothere advantage that you guys have like TRIP and DanceSafe. That kind of stuff doesnt even exsist down here, we have to fend for ourselves when it comes to drugs and people OD'ing. a few weeks ago i had a friend die in my arms. the body tests said that his body was clean but we didnt know. what i am saying is that yes the drugs are an issue and one of the reasons that the gov. is hating us and the raves are starting to look like a free passport to a life of peace, harmony, love, friendship and drugs. but also for new experiances and a chance to let go and be yourself. i just want to thank you guys even tyhough i dont know you for believeing in the raves and the love. be you e-tard tweecker, drug dealer or supplier, shady raver, old school or the new millenium of ravers. we all are connected.

pointy_sticks

Boy are you in for a nasty surprise...

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RaverPrincess

Hahaha....well I have no personal issue with Rob-B or anyone else on this board, but I DO have a bit of a fiery temper, specially about the rave scene. It is actually kind of interesting that someone on this board is arguing FOR the criminalization of raves. Having this discussion with everyone has only deepened my passion and love for this scene and enforced my belief that there are way too many misinformed individuals out there. I'm not claiming to know everything but I am making a point of learning as much as I can about the scene, the history, and the people. And I think that anyone who is going to make statements and opinions about this subject, whether they be ravers or government goons, should do the same thing.

While us Canadian ravers do have considerable more freedom to rave than our US ravers do, we are on very thin ice I think. Only a few short years ago, the Toronto city officials tried to take it away from us and what happened? The rave community came together and showed them that they will never be able to stop us from raving. I am grateful that we are able to party in a safe environment and I do hope that US ravers come together as well and make it known that no government will ever stop this culture.

Nadine

DynamicHalfDuo

Unfortunatly, the United States (with the furthest right leaning government of all Western nations by leaps and bounds) has a passion for legislating morality, and that morality is the one descended from the Puritans and Quakers who originally founded this country. A program like TRIP, which attempted to reduce harm resulting from drugs through any method other than brutal police control, would be deemed an enemy and watched over so thoroughly as to be unable to provide any real service.

All is not lost, however. Just think...someday I'll be president.

SmaX

Wow, this is sum crazy stuff goin on right about now LOL
but here is my 2 cents :-P

1...Drugs are EVERYWHERE in the world, in every corner, in every town.... Theres ur coke, crack, tweek, meth, E, and every other drug u can think of... stopping raves will do nothing to stop the drugs.... drugs will still be in clubs, they will still be in bars, they will still be at house partys....

2.... yes there are drugs at raves, alot of people where i am from (pittsbrugh) do drugs....i admit i eat a pill every now adn then, but i know what i am doing, what is in it, how much, and where and how i am doing it...... about our pgh freidn that died a while back.... supposidly i guess he ingested AMT whcih i guess is a new chemical drug like taking ecstasy and acid, adn he took it on top of i guess a e pill and a over the counter speeder, and all together io guess it mixed and shut his body down...
THIS IS WHAT TRIP AND DANCESAFE CAN STOP....
if there wasn't a club night, the chances our freind would have got the drug is still possible, so there fore shuttin down clubs and raves, will do NOTHING.... in pittsburgh i guess having a dancesafe or trip woudl make the club or party look bad, so we don't have one..... but maybe if our freind would have picked up a flyer about AMT and what it does and dangers of mixing it, it could have saved our freinds life....

but no....

the media and society doesn't wanna look bad by handing out flyers about drugs.....

i think it is all stupid.... the drugs will be there regardless.... there is nothing u can do to stop them... if they do shut down raves, they will go back underground, adn we will still come together and rave.....

i used to think the same thing a long time ago, that raves were all about drugs, and i was one fo the stupid 17 yr olds goin to a party, to try E....but when i did.... it opened my eyes to a whole new world.... i changed from being the most negative person ever, having bad words to say about everyone i meet, being depressed everday, and not a freind in the world,......To having TONS of real freinds, a life where every day i smile....and thank god to be alive...

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always lived my life alone
searchin for my place called home
i know that i can call on nessaja
and know dreams never die
somewhere deep inside,
somewhere deep inside me
i found the child i used to be
and i know its not to late
never too late

RoB-B

UGH
you guys take everything i say and twist it

im not trying to say that drugs are the main concern at raves, i know its about the music and dancing and socializing.

But, you cant deny that drugs are a big part.

And i dont care about how many people do drugs in college or at house parties or anywhere else.

Im simply stating, that drugs ruin people lives, maybe not yours or mine or your buddies, but it does for alot of people.

And the fact is, alot of kids do drugs at raves, and this is not acceptable.

ive read alot of pamplets and websites on E, like ecstasy.org
i was really curious about it. So i think i know enough about it.

So do you ever think they will be able to hold raves without drug use??? And im not talking about E, im talking about crystal, coke, k, G, everything else??

Ill tell you this from experience which proves a bit of my point.

I used to be a big jock in highschool, didnt know what a rave was, didnt know a thing about drugs.

My friend asks if i want to go to a rave, i say yes, why not, it cant hurt. But i was wrong

I would hzave never been exposed to the amount of drugs ive done if i hadnt attended that rave. It was the atmosphere, everyone else being so happy. People giving it to me for free.

E lead to k, k led to crystal, crystal led to coke. Typical cycle.

And why, because i went to a rave.

Not to say i wouldnt have done it without going to a rave, but the chances were much much much less.

If you honestly dont beleive drugs are part of raves, then you never will and im ending my argument here.

ALOT OF KIDS WHO GO TO RAVES GO TO MAKE FRIENDS AND FIT IT, IF EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING DRUGS, AND THEY WANT TO FIT IN AND BE ONE OF THEM, THEY WILL DO DRUGS TOO. KIDS WILL GO TO EXTREMES TO FIT IN. AND THE NEWBIES DONT KNOW ANY BETTER, ALL IT TAKES IS ONE TIME.

RoB-B

Most people will not just do E on a friday night well walking through the forest, or going to a movie or hanging out at a mall.

They only do it when they go to raves. If you take away raves, they are most likely going to stop doing it as much if they dont have the vibe and the people.

Unless your one of those special few people who like to do it while playing on the computer or in the shower or walking your dog, there are those special few.

Im not saying it would stop drug use from the people in the rave culture altogether, but it would cut it down alot.

goddamn, are there any politicians or parents on this board who wanna help me out?

Troile

Actually I don't think the majority is as big as you think it is. Thats just what you see b/c that is what you have experience with. A lot of E is sold out of clubs alone. Clubs are an excellent source of a lot of people to get their E whenever they need it.

Its like saying that the most drinking goes on at bars...But really most drinking goes on at home. Its just that its done privately by a few people in each area instead of publicly by a lot of people.

I think the best drug connections can be made in highschool. Failing that college or a bar...Generic social settings.

Thats pretty insulting...You're saying that anyone who isn't a parent or politician cannot see both sides of the story and aren't mature enough to voice valid opinions. So you're pleading with the 'parents and politicians' to help out your side b/c they're more enlightened so obviously will?

(and yeah...being on the hullaboard the odds are pretty much against you...It seems people who have connections with Hulla don't want it to become illegal.)

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Troile

Sorry didn't see your first post above.

You're making the age old argument that since something could provoke someone into making a decision that you must remove it first.

Of course everything that is wrong with your arguement is that it is all based on the decisions of the people. People are going to be able to make choices...you cannot stop them. You may want to live in the world of 'Demolition Man' but I certainly do not want to. I'd rather live below with Dennis Leary to keep me company.

You cannot take away people's rights to be individuals just b/c you went through something a certain way.

I'm sure everyone has their story. My friend went to the bar, everyone was drinking so she did to. She picked up a guy and had pre-marital sex. Egads! All bars must be closed b/c they encourage women to have pre-marital sex and expose their midriffs.

Ok so you were dumb. Again this isn't a valid arguement. You made a bad 'decision'. No one forced it on you. Many many people make really dumb decisions that they only could make b/c they were in certain situations. It doesn't mean that the situation is to blame. It is the person. You should suck it up and just admit that you were dumb. It is no one else's fault. The person that gave you a big hug and was oh so nice to you isn't at fault. Nor is anyone else involved in the production or enjoyment of that rave...You are to blame for your own stupid decisions. Just like you can pride yourself on your own brilliant ones.

Do you think they can hold a concert or a club w/o drugs? There are a lot of drugs that float around hard edged concerts. The difference?

DynamicHalfDuo

Well, I'm studying Political Science, I've been through two internships in DC and I was invited to represent the United States as part of a delegation sent to the Future World Leader's Summit of 2000...I think I understand politics and the nature of government rather well. And government, such as it is, is dictated by money and fear. Very few politicians have the balls to come out and say what they really mean for fear of getting hung on their own words.

I compare my experience in politics with my experience with raves (and my mediocre experience with drugs), and I find that I have a very, very difficult time reconciling the the shutting down of raves under the constitution or even under simple common sense.

RaverPrincess

Amen!!!
No one shoved a pill down your throat, no one forced you to put shit up your nose. YOU made a conscious decision, albeit a stupid one, to do anything you did. Shutting down a rave because people happen to make stupid choices there is completely insane!! It is just a way for you to place the blame on something or someone other than yourself for what you've done with your life.

As I've said a GAZILLION times already, I question why you are on this board, Rob-B or even in this scene altogether...And I know that's a judgemental statement to make but it's just what goes through my mind. You clearly have had a negative experience with raves and I am honestly sorry that you made decisions that have had negative consequences for you. I hope you have gotten past the drug shit but again it has clearly had an impact on your view of this scene. If it has caused so much negativity in your life, just stop going, stop doing the drugs, and let it go. I don't think you can still be true to this scene with your views and opinions as they are. But hey that's my two cents.

Nadine

Phlux

Absolutely 100% unture.... Maybe 5 or 10 years ago I might agree with you. But while the rave scene has declined in popularity, ecstacy is as popular as ever.

When I was in Britain I was blown away by the popularity of the drug. People take it everywhere; bars, clubs, in their homes, other peoples homes, parks, on the street, wherever, and at 2 or 3 Pounds per pill, anybody can afford to do it.

But eventually, the popularity of Ecstacy will die down and some other new drug will come along and take the spotlight. But as long as there are people who are curious, people that want to experiment for the purposes of altering their own consiousness, there will always be demand for drugs and there will always be somebody willing to supply them. Government intervention will do little to change that and banning raves is futile and a waste of taxpayers dollars.

Troile

Phlux is absolutely right you know.

We don't have any real nightclubs in my town but we have a couple bars that are sort of like nightclubs. Every weekend there are a couple people on E...

A lot of people take E just to have sex with their partner...or for a romantic night with their partner to become closer to one another.

A lot of people I know took E after they started going to raves. But just as many if not more took E beforehand just as if it were another drug. After they started going to raves they became aware of how serious a drug it was and cut back. Now I don't believe the raves had anything to do with causing more drug use or stifling it. I think drug use is an independant decision. Either the person realizes they're messing themselves up and cuts back or they decide they want to experiment with drugs. The coincidental timing of when they first start going to raves is just that, coincidental.

*edit*

Actually I thought your remark about only a few people doing it and hanging out in a mall was quite funny. I know a guy who did it and hung out in Walmart. Apparently it was the funnest time he has ever had in Walmart.

RoB-B

you are so fucking dense

did you not read my whole post first, i agree that people do drugs everywhere else besides raves. How many times have i said that.

I DONT CARE WHERE EVERYONE ELSE DOES DRUGS
im talking about raves, nothing else.

And second, you are calling me dumb for my own mistakes. You obviously didnt get the point of what i was saying. Go back and read it again dip shit.

The point was that i wouldnt have been exposed to as much as i have if i never went to a rave. Maybe i would have, but they way my life was going, no one i knew did that shit.

As far as your premarital sex story, its pointless, you can even compare having sex which is healthy for you to hard drugs.

the only argument you hold is that clubs have drugs, highschools have drugs, so why cant raves have drugs?? why only pick on raves.

Please rethink what you are talking about, get some buddies to check it over, ask you mom what she thinks, just please, make your argument good.

Yes, clubs and highschools have drugs, so fucking what? thats a whole nother issue.

The fact of the matter is that alot of people do alot of drugs at raves.

RoB-B

answer this question with just a yes or no

no feedback

Do you, personally, think that there is to much drug use at raves?

DynamicHalfDuo

You clearly missed the point on my relating sex education to drug education (we won't even touch the statement "sex which is healthy for you" with a ten foot pole)... my point is that teaching abstinence to the exclusion of teaching harm reduction is stupid and inneffective. It's like saying "Don't have sex!" and refusing to mention condom use, and then being shocked when people have sex and don't use condoms.

To answer your question "is there too much drug use at raves" without any qualifiers and adjusters...

No.

RoB-B

How can you sincerly beleive that?

So its ok that all these kids and adults are doing the amount of drugs they do? Its acceptable??


so you are saying its ok to do drugs then?

please tell me why you dont think there is to much drug use at raves??
i would like to hear this, and please dont go off comparing it to clubs and schools again, because that is irrelivant