willisJ

Last year you helped the Drug Policy Alliance stop the RAVE Act from
becoming law. This year supporters of the draconian drug war bill are
back with a vengeance. They have stopped calling it the "RAVE Act"
and have stuck its provisions in a popular omnibus domestic security
bill. This is a common Congressional ploy: put controversial bills
that can't go anywhere on their own into important bills, so that
Members of Congress are forced to vote for them.

Your help is needed to stop these disguised RAVE Act provisions from
becoming law!!!

The bill, S.22, is sponsored by Senator Tom Daschle (D-SD). The
troubling drug war provisions are in the section entitled "Crack
House Statute Amendments"

ACTIONS TO TAKE

*** Call your two Senators. You can contact your Senators through the
Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121. To find out who your Senators
are go to: http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cfm.
Tell them:
1) You oppose the "crack house statute" amendments in S.22.
2) These provisions are just like the provisions in the RAVE Act
last year.
3) The provisions would endanger public health, free speech, and
property rights.
4) Urge them to contact Daschle's office and work to get these
provisions removed from S.22.

** Fax Senator Daschle (even if he is not one of your two Senators).
To fax Senator Daschle go to:
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action....m=1448.

** Please forward this action alert to your friends and family. The
Senate needs to know that voters find this bill unacceptable.

For more information on the RAVE Act and how the S. 22 "crack house"
provisions will affect public health, free speech, and property
rights see: http://www.nomoredrugwar.org/music/rave_act.htm


Please visit
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.ctsg...ubscription.asp to
learn about other lists you can subscribe to, or to unsubscribe from
individual lists.

For problems, please contact Jeanette Irwin at jirwin@drugpolicy.org .

Please consider joining the Drug Policy Alliance:
http://www.drugpolicy.org/join

__________________
I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human with the soul of a clown, which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments. - J. Morrison

Phlux

Drug Policy Alliance Press Release

Several weeks ago we warned you that last year's RAVE Act was
incorporated into Sen. Daschle's domestic security bill (S. 22). It
gets worse. Senators Biden (D-DE), Grassley (R-IA), Feinstein (D-CA), and Lieberman (D-CT) have introduced it as a stand-alone bill (S. 226 - which is not posted on thomas.loc.gov yet. We'll link from our site, http://www.drugpolicy.org , once it becomes available). It's not called the RAVE Act. Nor does it have a findings section talking about raves or electronic music. It's now called the Illicit Drug Anti-Proliferation Act. DON'T BE FOOLED! It's the RAVE Act in new clothing. If enacted, it would harm innocent business owners, undermine public safety, and stifle free speech and musical expression.

Your help is needed to stop this disguised RAVE Act from becoming
law!!!

*** Fax your two Senators. Tell them to oppose S. 226 the Illicit
Drug Anti-Proliferation Act. You can use our convenient system:
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/

Or find your Senators's fax number at:
http://www.senate.gov

*** Please forward this action alert to your friends and family. The
Senate needs to know that voters find this bill unacceptable.

For more information on the RAVE Act and S. 226 see:
http://www.nomoredrugwar.org/music/rave_act.htm

Please consider making a donation to help the Drug Policy Alliance
continue to fight for our rights: http://www.drugpolicy.org/join

We need your support to stop this bill!

RoB-B

do you not think that if raves are outlawed, many kids futures will be saved??? from ie, drugs, theft???

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http://baselinestudios.com/new_toplogo.gif

Seizure

Not really... I see it this way.. if the act passes or whatnot.. raves will just go back underground again... I, for one, hope it does... as for drugs... people will do it even more.. and at times.. in larger amounts... then the government will have more on their hands than they do now..

pointy_sticks

You'd get the same results from outlawing High School, but you don't see Congress pushing for that.

__________________
I'm a girl!

Phlux

How about instead of asking us that question why don't you tell us how kids futures WILL be saved by banning raves.

Seizure

Theres no real point of banning raves... cuz if they ban raves.. they'll have the ban clubs from staying open.. since the same things are happening in there as in raves... different atmosphere, but alcohol and drugs are still going on inside these clubs.

RaverPrincess

Please tell me you don't believe that and that you were just being the devil's advocate??? Do you know how much MORE danger they would be putting ravers in by outlawing it? Just because they make it a crime, isn't gonna stop anyone from doing it and it's just gonna go even further underground where there is more danger of overdoses, dangerous venues with no running water, bathrooms, or security. I, for one, am damned glad raves aren't outlawed here because I know that if anything happens, there are security and medical personnel on hand.

There is nothing criminal about what we do - governments are just afraid of anything that seems too much like a "movement". If they outlaw raves - how far are we away from a society that doesn't allow any personal expression, from a society that uses sensory deprivation to control its citizens? Sounds far fetched but if we let them make it illegal to dance and come together and enjoy music, they won't stop there.

Nadine

DynamicHalfDuo

lol...so true, too. Take a look at High School objectively:

The government passes a law forcing parents to give their kids to an institution for 7 hours of every day, for the most important developmental years of a child's life (from age 6 all the way to age 18), where kids who break "the rules" are punished, where they are forced to learn what the government mandates all "good citizens" should know... looking at it that way, it sounds awfully dictatorial.

Waaaaaaaay off topic now...so yeah...call your senator and tell him or her to vote against the incognito RAVE act... and high school!

__________________
Nocturnal Commissions - Hardcore with a Smile

anabolic frolic

A Nation-wide curfew of 6pm-6am might also cut down on crime and drugs as well. They should think about that.

DynamicHalfDuo

^^^^^^

LOL... That was a good one

DynamicHalfDuo

.

RaverPrincess

Hey hey hey! Don't you be givin those politicians any more ideas, Frolic!! hehehe I'm sure they'd just love one more way to contol us unruly youth...

Nadine

Seizure

I don't want to share the same curfew that people on parole have! :/

RoB-B

dancing is not a crime

all the drugs people do is though.

I for one think if raves were banned, they would not go underground.

Because of the awareness of the guvernment and other authority figures on raves these days. They would be able to stop them, or at least stop any big ones from happening.

Back when raves first started, they could get away with being underground, mainly because of the lack of knowledge of them. they are known these days.

Because of the knowledge about raves these days, there is a way greater risk for the patron throwing the party. Like facing huge fines and jail time for breaking the law. Back when there was no law, there were less risks.

As for frolis stupid comment about making a nation wide curfew, that will never happen, cause that affects everyone, you cant stop the whole population, where ass "ravers" is a small small portion of the population. And i know you were just being a smart ass.

RoB-B

As far as the saving peoples futures. Drugs hurt people, and change people.
Obviously people will do drugs no matter where they are, but people do way more drugs at raves than most places in general.

I know people, plus from personal experiences about ow drugs effect ppeople for the bad, and change people.

If raves were banned, it may not stop the whole population of "ravers" from doing drugs, but it would it would definatly stop some of it. And some of it is better than none.

Some people only do drugs at raves, if there are no raves, they won do drugs. to some its the experience of the rave that makes them wanna do drugs, raves nad drugs go hand in hand.

If you honestly beleive thatn raves do not effect people in a negative way, then you need your brain checked.

its Not the actualy rave itself, but what goes on during raves.

RaverPrincess

If there are negative things happening at raves then stop those individual things, not raves all together. That's like saying people drink and drive after leaving a bar, so let's ban all bars and clubs across Canada. You can't punish an entire segment of the population because some people do drugs. If the politicians around us are concerned about the amount of drugs going around the rave scene, then go after the dealers, the suppliers, and the people importing these substances. They just figure it's easier to take away the rights of a bunch of stupid kids than actually put some money and effort into stopping the trafficking of illegal substances.

And how can you say that raves won't go underground again?? Of course they will...they will just have to go even further underground because, as you say, there is more knowledge about them now. This WILL result in a higher risk to these ravers than is there now. They will be forced to go back to old abandoned buildings or outdoor venues where there is no access to running water, bathrooms, and no security to stop the thug dealers from getting in.

So get your head out of your ass and THINK about these things. I read in another thread that you apparently have only ever been to two parties and just keep coming on here talkin bout the same two parties. Why do you even come onto this board anymore? You clearly have NO respect for this scene, the promoter OR the people. You are in the wrong forum if you want to start defending the people who want to take this scene away from us.

Nadine

DynamicHalfDuo

"As far as the saving peoples futures. Drugs hurt people, and change people.
Obviously people will do drugs no matter where they are, but people do way more drugs at raves than most places in general."

That's an unfair assesment to make, and untrue as well. I can think of at least one place where people do considerably more drugs than at a rave - bars. (Alcohol isn't a drug? HAH!) Or how about this one - COLLEGE. The amount of drug use I see at my school is extraordinary. Ravers popping a pill or two is NOTHING next to suburbanite college kids snorting oxycontin, coke, and wellabutrin just to wake up in the morning, smoking weed all through their class periods, and then binge drinking that night - and this on a weekday. But Politicians won't go after that particular problem - because unlike ravers, college kids pay tens of thousands of dollars into the system annually (through their parents, who are very often well-to-do political types in the first place). The Raves aren't the problem - the drugs are.

Well, if you honestly believe that drugs are "bad" then the drugs are the problem. The REAL problem is the whole war on drugs in the first place.

RoB-B

ha ha
you obviously read the other thread wrong
because i have been going to raves for over 3 years now, and have been to i couldnt even tell you, anywhere from 60 to 100
maybe even more.

Second, i have all the respect for the scene, the promoter and the people. You dont know a thing about me what so ever, so how can you be that ignorant to say something like that. And yes, you are ignorant if you havent listened to a word i have said.

I am not defending people who want to take the scene away from us, i love music and the night life, more than you know.

I am simply stating that what goes on in raves has a negative effect on people, especially the younger kids who havent developed enough to realize the harm of drugs.

And its true, you get 16 year old guys and girls attending raves who are in high school and who SHOULD be focusing on school to do well in the future. They are going every weekend to raves, and popping3 E's, maybe some jib, and a vial of k after the party.

Now if you are going to tell me that they are not hurting themselves and others, you obviously need to get your head out of your ASS.
I already said that people will still do drugs outside of raves, which you seemed to ignore. But if you take raves away, you take the vibe away, which will stop some people, now all though.

If you dont have the vibe and the music you are not going to pop and E in the park on a friday night. Some people will, but the majority of people will not.

If raves were drug free, there would be no concern now would there.

RoB-B

POLITIANS ARE NOT OUT TO SHUT DOWN RAVES BECAUSE OF THE MUSIC OR THE DANCING.

THEY HAVE CHILDREN TOO, THEY ARE DOING IT OUT OF CONCERN FOR THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRIES YOUTH. THEY ARE NOT DOING IT OUT OF SPITE JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE ASSHOLES.

I CAN GUARENTEE THAT, IF YOU ACTUALLY TOOK THE TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT, AND STOP BEING SO DENSE AS TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY ARE OUT TO GET RAVERS, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND.

i used to think they same way you did raver princess, but i know from experience now, that raves (not the music and dancing) but other aspects of it, hurt people and ruin peoples lives.

i mean, its the greatest time ever when you go, but it only takes one time taking E to make you do it for the rest of your life

RoB-B

you know what, you are right 100%
im in college, and ive been there and done that.

thats not what im arguing. My argument was more directed to the kids who are still in highschool, who should still be expanding there minds, getting into post secondary school if thats what they want.
a 20 year old knows exactly what he is doing an gettinginto, but someone youngeri beleive doesnt know the full extent of what they are doing.

I was at a nightmare party almost 2 years ago, and i was talking to this girl
She was 12 years old, just going into grade 7 all fucked up on E, and having some 16 year old guy take advatage of her.

This case may be a bit extreme, and rarely happen, but it happend, and it made me sick.

I talked to her about it, she said she did E, cause she was at a rave, and she had never done it before.

If you beleive this is ok, then you to are sick

RaverPrincess

Well first off, my bad for possibly mixin you up with someone else who said that they had only been to two raves.

I'm not just spoutin off all kinds of shit just to sound like a bitch. You can go to 1000 raves for all I care, but that doesn't prove to me that you respect the scene, or the people. Granted, you probably don't care about proving shit to me...which is fine.

#1 - if you had any respect for the people in this scene, you wouldn't automatically assume we are all e-tards who don't have a brain cell left in our heads. Yes, you are right, the amount of young kids who are doing drugs is terrifying - even I have talked to some at raves who were scarily young and doin way too much shit. That is what education is for. That is what TRIP is for and DanceSafe and other harm reduction groups. Let's get these kids educated on the facts and lets make sure they don't go and do these stupid things. Our society is afraid to teach kids anything other than "Just Say No" - and we all know how well that works. I am in full agreement with you that these kids shouldn't be doing the shit they are doing. Criminalizing raves is not the solution.

#2 - I just want to reiterate my point of GET THE DRUGS OFF THE STREETS PERIOD. If politicians are so worried about it, why aren't they out there getting the dealers and suppliers? Because they are too busy scapegoating the rave culture! And because we are easier targets than multimillionaire drug suppliers. Why spend a billion dollars on getting the drugs off the streets and off the market when you can shut a rave down for a fraction of the cost?

#3 - "it's not the rave itself, but what goes on during the rave that's the problem"? and you call ME dense and ignorant?? If you have gone to as many parties as you claim to have, then I would hope that you would know that there is so much more going on at a rave than drugs. What goes on at a rave that is so bad? Yes there are drugs, yes there are dealers...but more importantly there are thousands of people coming together to enjoy the music, to dance, and to be around people who are as passionate as they are about this scene.

#4 - Your faith in our governments is sweet - naive, but sweet. Kind of nice to think that there is a raver in this world who believes that our government really cares about us. I just don't buy it. I'm sorry - I don't think politicians shut down raves because they care about us. If you buy into that, then more power to ya, but I don't. If they cared about the rave population, why would they even consider shoving it further underground and endangering their beloved kids? As I've said time and time again, they need someone to be a scapegoat, to take the blame for all the bad things that go on.

Having spouted my meaningless opinion, I just want to say that if I came across as a little harsh, or bitchy, it's just because this is something that I am very passionate about. I am very concerned about the scary way that kids are getting messed up and that's why I think education is the key, not shutting down raves all together. This scene is so important to so many people, has brought so many people together, and has changed so many lives for the better that it would be horrible to take that away from us. And one reason I kind of came on real strong on the defensive is that I guess I couldn't believe that you would come on this board of all boards and say something like that. Chris Frolic has worked very hard with city officials with the TDSC and with TRIP to ensure that it was kept legal and that it would be as safe as we can possibly make it. I just thought it was a little disrespectful to come on here and say things that go against alot of what he has done for this scene.

Well this post is turning into a novel, so let me end it there. And let me offer my apologoes for making generalizations about someone I don't know. My passionate nature sometimes gets the best of me. I just love this scene and what it has done for my life and can't imagine it being taken away from me.

Nadine

P.S. Rob-B, I actually look forward to continuing this debate with you...finally an intelligent discussion.

DynamicHalfDuo

"thats not what im arguing. My argument was more directed to the kids who are still in highschool, who should still be expanding there minds, getting into post secondary school if thats what they want.
a 20 year old knows exactly what he is doing an gettinginto, but someone youngeri beleive doesnt know the full extent of what they are doing."

I agree with you that there is a problem with drug use among young ravers. As a 21 year old, I've been through enough that I know how to take care of myself when I do drugs or drink. I've been educated on that by friends and experience.
Now, if education on the nature of use of drugs is what makes it safe for us to do them, don't you think the proper solution to the drug problem is education aimed at the younger children?

People decry sex education that only preaches abstinence because it doesn't work, where sex education that teaches all the aspects of sexuality - in particular, safety and protection - reduces harm a great deal. Drug education works the same way - except those same politicians who are looking out for their children by trying to shut down raves are preventing people from even educating others about drugs. Look at the problems TRIP and DanceSafe have getting into events - DanceSafe, which offers (at some venues) XTC testing for free to people on the scene, was getting threatened with trafficking by the police. What kind of co-operation is that?

Further, beyond the drugs raving is a legitimate sub-culture. To shut us down because we happen to be associated in the public mind with drugs that are also negatively associated in that same public mind (the reason being, of course, that high school that you already mentioned...but that's another topic!) is like shutting down any other "bad" group. It implies that we can legislate a morality and that there is an absolute "good" and "bad" - and that politicians are the sole arbiters of that moral justice. Not a very good situation (Iran, anyone?)

Your concern is in the right place, but the solution to shut down raves is neither practically nor principally sound.

But it's good of you to have a good strong opinion on the topic.

RoB-B

haha
i feel this is a good debate as well

first, your appolgy is accepted, i do know what im talking about and it seems you do aswell.

1st
i dont assume every raver is an etard, i have cleaned up lately and am jealous of the people who have so much fun without drugs, because honestly, for alot of people at raves, it is hard.

But, who actually takes the time to look into trip and dancesafe, i for one have never, and dont know alot of people who have. the reason it is hard to get the point across to kids, is because they WANT to do E. They dont want reasons to stop, and if every person who did E wanted to stop, they would look into this. Deep down inside, every person knows its bad, but E makes them happier than most aspects of their life.

2.
Yes, it is cheaper to shut down a rave than get drugs off the streets period. But, you have to think to yourself, is that a realistic goal? Maybe, but it will take years and years and years, and once you stop one dealer, another one just pops up.
While shutting down raves maybe be a short term temporary goal, but isnt stopping some drug use better than non at all?

3.
i know there is much more to raves than drugs. Raves to me means the whole vibe. Dancing, socializing, making new friends. If makes people feel good about themselves. Alot of it is also a fake happiness cause by the effects of E.
But yes, i am die hard about the music, and listen to it all day every day.
E is just an additive to the music. And honeslty, i hated the music till i did E the first time. It opens up peoples lives to new experiences.
I know there is more than drugs, but you have to admit, raves and drugs go hand in hand.

4.
The guvernment is a tricky topic, because we do not truely know the meanings behind their acts.
But from history of my knowledge. These laws have been put in places because of certain tramatizing events, such the death at a hulla in the underground parking lot. And because of kids ODing all the time. These are what have triggered their actions. If nothin bad happend at raves so serious, im sure everyone would be happy about dancing and partying.

The big thing recently was rythem of life, hullabaloo, where someone was stabbed to death. This was the biggest turning point from my perspective. After this happend, was the time that raves changed dramaticly. With the laws on how they must be held on city property and have so many cops per person, so many ambulences.

It is because someone was killed, and i happen to know that they were killed because of drugs, because of E. Parents, politicians, kids, have a right to want to stop this from happening again.

i know im going on and on, but i have so much more to say about it.

Raves are also dangerous, just because of people, thugs, anyone. Take wemf for example, its not a typical event, but people get robbed, beat up, OD.

It is not safe, security has been shit the last 2 years. I know girls whom have asked me to walk with them at night because they were scared to go by themselves.

Honestly, we can debate all we want, but raves are not the happy little party every thinks they are.