RoB-B

well shit guys!!!!

we almost had a new venue

i guess the thugs at hulla werent being typical thugs

jokes, at least there is still hullas

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*BunnE*

Thank you. You just made my day. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. That has got to be one of the stupidest things I've read in a long time. Reading it a fourth and fifth time, it's starting to make sence but it should have been reworded. Anyways...

Looking up scene in the dictionary it says that a scene is (amoungst other things...) "The context and environment in which something is set." I don't think that any one drug has a scene. There are several drugs that get used withen the rave community but that does not give those drugs a scene.

I understand what you're saying but in any "scene" there will always be someone who ruins it for other people.

When you're putting crap in my otherwise clean pill then I [i]will/i] blame you! There aer a few people out there who make clean pills but not everyone is like that. When people can take one pill and get extremely sick then I blame the chemist. When everyone gets sick from low levels of a certain pill, it's the chemist's fault.

Don't pre-load with it though. It'll kill your roll. Post-load and you'll be fine. It's all a matter of taking vitamins and taking care of your body in between rolls. Eat healthy, work out a bit..you'll be ok.

I fully agree with you here.

DJ Tranzit

just to clarify here, i don't hold a grudge against anyone here, and the reason i am picking these posts apart is to hopefully shine a different light on situations that are usually only seen in one...

i am not here to argue, but simply to make decent conversation... shots should not be taken personally, but are directed at some comments i disagree with.

yes... BUT extended use of ecstacy causes this seratonin to replenish slower, and each time it may not replenish as much as it should... none the less, ecstacy as i am sure you know was created as a group theropy drug (i believe... if not, that was one of it's early uses), but got taken off the market, and made illegal because of it's side effects. plain and simple... if it was safe (to an extent), it would still be used.
good point.... money does basically buy ALMOST anything.. but many scientists and doctors are out on their own... in the states doctors are not always paid by the government... they collect as the patients walk through the door. Same here in canada... health care doesn't always pay for everything... sometimes patients have to pay for things if their health care doesn't cover things.. i'm sure many of us wouldn't know this, as we haven't come across this situation yet...

none the less... some doctors and scientists can be paid off to say things... but i would still take into consideration that if there was people being paid off like this (especially mass amounts, AND to post this on the internet mind you), i would think there would be some type of public/media attention paid to it.
yes... but we ARE talking about teenagers and young adults here... that is the majority of people that attend raves and use ecstacy at them.... this is the topic we're on right? sure... ecstacy doesn't make you all depressed after one dose, but there are slight signs of it after each pill... the first time i tried it i felt alone afterwards... even though people were around, i still felt alone and somewhat depressed/sad in a way... throw in another factor such as getting yelled at by parents, problems with your b/f or g/f and bits of depression set in... depression leads to ideas such as suicide and self abuse, which you wouldn't usually do... the root of this would be ecstacy right? this is what i am trying to point out.
how can you tell if a lab rat is depressed, has anxiety, paranoia,
hallucinations, panic, psychotic episodes, drug craving, and other symptoms?
i did provide some sites such as educational sites and whatnot that made statements to back me up.
ok... i don't like reading books too much, but i do read a lot on the internet, and will sit here reading something for hours if it sparks ANY bit of interest, or has to do with something that i am talking about at the time.. i have seen many things on ecstacy, and i have read pages upon pages of information on it. i wouldn't call myself totally educated on the subject, but i feel proficient in talking about it.. i would contact people such as TRIP, who are not biased, and have training and do severe amounts of reading on drugs... they are educated.
and this is why there is problems... irresponsible users... but if you look at it another way, all users are a possible problem... get a bad pill.... you're in trouble... get caught with it before you get a chance to take it... you're in trouble... these problems usually overflow to innocent people.
from what all sources have reported, it was ecstacy... i believe frolic will be able to back me up here...

very few pills of ecstacy are pure MDMA... it is usually cut with something..... LSD, heroin, cocaine, whatever... i have had a pill with a hint of heroin in it... it made me really sick, whereas the other people that had the same pills were fine. different pills do different things to you... sure.. it's still ecstacy, but as i said, almost all pills are cut with something, and whatever that something is, can make you have reactions you haven't had from other pills.

it isn't hard to overdose on ecstacy... take too much, and your heart starts to race... not enough, or too much liquids in you can cause a lot of problems...

ecstacy isn't to blame for anything really.. it's the users that are to be blamed for the problems IMO.

oOFuzzEOo

I agree with the beginning half of your post, to an extent. I don't have the sources to back me up right now so I can't dispute anything you've said.

I don't do the tests on these animals so I'm not sure how they tell, but they do. If you've ever owned a rat, you would be able to tell when it's not feeling the greatest. Same with rabbits, dogs, monkeys, any animal they would have used. They did a test on a rabbit. For (I forget the amount of time...it was over several years) they had a rabbit smoke a cigarette nine times a day. It was addicted to them. How did they tell? That's a craving... So they can tell. MDMA was not consumed by humans until the mid-1960's. Research was done on animals long before that. It's difficult to do testing now on MDMA because of it's Schedule I status.

Fair enough. I agree with that. I understand that, while under the influence of many mind-alterants people react differently in situations.

I got a lot of my information from TRIP as one of my good friends works for them. I've read several websites and books on Ecstasy and I've been studying it for almost eight years. I like to think that I have a little bit of knowledge. I neither condem nor condone the use of Ecstasy or any other drug, legal or not. I try to get the correct information on a drug, whether or not I like what I read. It's difficult to decide what is fact and what is simply someone's opinion though. That's why I don't like websites as much. Many seem to be either for or against; not just giving information.

I'm going to lump these two in together so I can address them withen the same responce.

Of course it was "Ecstasy." I can sell my birth control as Ecstasy and if someone got sick from it, it would be "Ecstasy" that he OD'd on. I seriously doubt that he OD'd on MDMA though. When selling something as Ecstasy, it can be anything. Not necessarily MDMA. That's why I don't believe that he took MDMA. It takes a lot of MDMA to OD. Define overdose for me... I think of it as someone who can't physically handle the amount they have taken. Uncontrolable vomiting, severe dehydration, headaches and dizzyness. Not enough or too much liquid is not ODing. Because people are told to drink lots of water, they just continue to drink. This can make your brain swell and then can cause death. That's only one of the problems. Obviously, on the other side of the coin, dehydration can occur.

That's exactly what I was looking for.

I agree that I am not holding a grudge against anyone. It's nice to see that there are some people that can hold their own in a conversation. It's nice to have someone to debate with.

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oOFuzzEOo

^^^That's really *BunnE* but I can't logout of my boyfriend's account.

Mrs Frolic

> And this kid overdosed on..? It's very difficult to OD on Ecstasy. He would have to have taken a lot! He could have taken Ecstasy (which isn't always MDMA..it's a pill being sold as it) and then could have OD'd on whatever else. So Ecstasy isn't entierly to blame here.

FTR, the autopsy report was never publicly released.

> none the less, ecstacy as i am sure you know was created as a group theropy drug (i believe... if not, that was one of it's early uses), but got taken off the market, and made illegal because of it's side effects. plain and simple... if it was safe (to an extent), it would still be used.

The misinformation in that statement is incredible. So, point by point:

MDMA was not created as a therapy drug. "MDMA was synthesized sometime before 1912. The German pharmaceutical giant Merck was attempting to create a new medication to stop bleeding when it stumbled across MDMA as an intermediate step in the synthesis. On Christmas Eve in 1912, Merck filed the patent for this styptic medication, called hydrastinin; MDMA was included in the patent application as an intermediate chemical only. ...There was no use mentioned for MDMA in Merck's patent application."

Nor was therapy one of it's early uses. It wasn't used at all, for therapeutic purposes, until the 1970's. Alexander Shulgin introduced MDMA to some friends, some of whom were therapists, in 1976. "One therapist, referred to as Jacob in Myron Stolaroff's book 'The Secret Chief', was so impressed by the effects of MDMA that he came out of retirement and began to introduce other therapists to the drug. This led to a slow spread of underground psychotherapeutic work in the late seventies and early eighties. Psychotherapist Ann Shulgin estimates as many as four thousand therapists were introduced to MDMA during Jacob's tenure."

At that time a shift began into recreational use. "The name the therapists had given to MDMA was Adam, signifying 'the condition of primal innocence and unity with all life' described in the Bible's account of the Garden of Eden. But MDMA acquired a new name among recreational users of the drug. It is widely accepted that the name Ecstasy was chosen simply for marketing reasons. ...'It would sell better than calling it Empathy. Empathy would be more appropriate, but how many people know what it means?'"

"By the early 1980's, recreational use of MDMA had begun in earnest. Because MDMA was not yet a scheduled drug, people could order it by calling a toll-free number and paying with their credit cards. It was also available at certain nightclubs where over-the-counter sales were subject to tax."

"All of this MDMA-fueled nightlife got the attention of Texas Democratic Senator Lloyd Benson, who ... urged the FDA to make the drug illegal. The DEA published their intention to declare MDMA a schedule I drug on July 27, 1984. A Schedule I drug is prohibited for every application, has no recognized medical use, and cannot be prescribed by a physician. ...A group of psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and researchers ...filed a letter asking for a hearing. The request was granted."

"An expert committee of the World Health Organization recommended that MDMA be placed in Schedule I but urged countries to 'facilitate research in this interesting substance'. ...People who had experience giving MDMA to patients testified as to the unique ability of MDMA to catalyze the therapeutic process..."

"Speaking on behalf of the DEA were those who felt MDMA caused brain damage. Dr. Lewis Seden of the University of Chicago presented data from animal studies of MDA, demonstrating changes in the axon terminals of rodents given injections of large amounts of that substance. Humans do not take MDMA by injection, but ingest it orally. Moreover, these two drugs are very different in terms of their effects and how long they last, and they have opposite active optical isomers. Nonetheless, the MDA neurotoxicity data seemed to make an impact for the prosecution's side."

"Based on the weight of the evidence presented at the three hearings, Judge Francis Young handed down an opinion on May 22, 1986. Because he felt there was an accepted medical use for MDMA, he recommended to the DEA that MDMA be placed in Schedule III. This would allow clinical work and research to proceed unhindered and would permit physicians to prescribe MDMA."

"Judge Young's recommendation was ignored. During the course of an appeal by Dr. Lester Grinspoon, ...MDMA was again unscheduled. Grinspoon won his case - the first circuit court of appeals in Boston ruled that the DEA could not use the fact that MDMA did not have Food and Drug Administration approval as the basis for their argument that MDMA had no medically accepted use."

"At the end of all the trials and appeals, John Lawn and the DEA permanently placed MDMA in Schedule I on March 23, 1988."

Despite the limited research that has been done, the consensus is still out on whether MDMA causes damage, what kind of damage it may cause, and the effects of that damage. The studies performed on animals have used incredible amounts of MDMA far beyond what a human would take, and the studies almost always used injection as versus ingestion.

In addition, animal studies don't show all that much; animal studies showed us that Thalidomide was safe! On the basis of animal studies showing its safety, thalidomide was given to pregnant women and caused extraordinary amounts of massive birth defects such as babies without limbs and 'flipper children'.

And you don't really believe that things are taken off the market because they're dangerous, do you? If fear for public safety was really what motivated the government to do what it does, tobacco and alcohol would have been made Schedule I years ago. Cigarettes kill more people each year than ALL ILLEGAL DRUGS COMBINED.

The only reason the government wants to see MDMA kept illegal is because Merck patented MDMA in 1914 (the patent has long since expired) and nobody else can patent it; ergo, nobody can make much money off it.

The FDA approved the first legally sanctioned U.S. MDMA study on November 2, 2001. The purpose is to study the use of MDMA on people suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Similar studies have been occurring in European countries for several years now.

I also want to point out that nobody really understands yet the role of serotonin in the brain and body. Most of the antidepressants here work by slowing reuptake of serotonin; most of the European antidepressants work by *increasing* the reuptake of serotonin. Even though their actions are exactly opposite, both types of drugs are effective. I think this clearly illustrates that when it comes to neurotransmitters and their functions, we're still unable to find our ass in the dark with both hands and a flashlight.

Mrs Frolic

Oh, all quotes in the above post came from "Ecstasy: The Complete Guide" subtitle "A Comprehensive Look at the Risks and Benefits of MDMA" by Dr. Julie Holland.

Although this book only devoted one sentence to the DEA beginning to get interested in MDMA, I believe I read in another book that the *reason* the senator got interested was because his son began using MDMA. I'm sure the other book is around the house somewhere, so I'll try to find it and post the direct quote.

oOFuzzEOo

Thank you Mrs Frolic. That was the information I was looking for. My sources were not at hand and I didn't want to quote anything incorrectly. I got the same information from a book called The Love Drug: Marching to the Beat of Ecstasy.

^^^Again, posted by *BunnE*. The servers won't let me log my boyfriend out.

DJ Tranzit

wow... robin.. you're ARE really bored eh?

none the less.. thanks for all the info... that was excellent..
my source on the theropy was what i have read and heard in many places.... it's been forever and a day since i last read some REAL facts and info on the drug...

one of the only reasons i know / read about these drugs (ones that usually are found at "raves") is because i did a whole little "study" on them before i started going... i was really interested in the "scene" and my parents were quite hesitant to let me out at the age of 15.... i felt i could prove responsible by showing them i was educated... i must have put together a good 100-150 page novel on what the rave scene was about (from what i heard and read) and what the pros and cons were, with detailed explanations on what i would do in certain situations..

it did work.... i did prove i was responsible, yet when the first story on the news hit about raves, my dad went through the roof.. now he understands (from what i know).


bunne... yea... it's good to have someone to debate with..

i will reply to your post, but i am at work right now, and i just got up... i'm in the middle of eating a big mac, and my brain feels absolutely fried.... give me some time to wake up not to mention, i'm on a 28.8 here, and i really don't have the patience to wait for websites to load up

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Mrs Frolic

I completely forgot to look for that other book! Mr. Frolic got me "Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons" just before he left and I'm hooked. It makes me nostalgic for all the hours I spent playing the original Legend of Zelda with my sister. *sniffle* Sometimes I miss my family so much. It's weird that I've lived here for 4 1/2 years now but sometimes it still feels like I left my family yesterday. That's my sister, in the green dress. You can't really see it in the pic but we look a lot alike.


Okay, so I went and dug up that other book, which is "the book of E" by push & mireille silcott. It discusses how MDMA caught on with the children of the rich oil barons, of 16-y/o's putting $500 hotel rooms on their charge cards and getting all fucked up with their friends while quietly trailed by a parent-assigned chaperone to make sure nothing bad happened to them. But the real problem started when it hit the college campuses:

"The drug had reached non-clubbing high-schoolers and college kids by the winter of 1984. ...It was becoming a major problem. Especially for one segment of students - the ones training for government like their fathers had, the students at the terribly stiff-lipped and church-backed Southern Methodist University.

...'The SMU students usually weren't connected to the club scene, so for them, ecstasy was something with which to complement a fun night, it was a context-less thing to get fucked up on, beer-bash stuff. Watch SMU kids drink beer and you might understand - they are under pressure, they drink not for enjoyment but for oblivion. You'd see the odd one careening into the Starck [nightclub] - taking five, seven, ten pills in one go, overdoing it in a way that there was no possibility that the police and newspapers wouldn't have to get involved. They were obvious, having to be rolled into hospitals in ridiculous states, having gone temporarily blind from overactive eyelid fluttering.'

'And don't forget,' says Hampton, 'They were politician's kids. Their parents were all friends with George Bush (then Vice President of the United States), for God's sake. They were the death knell for legal ecstasy, those kids.'"

Mrs Frolic

> wow... robin.. you're ARE really bored eh?

It's not that, so much. It's just a sensitive subject for me and I think the misinformation spread about MDMA has done the cause significant damage.

I have some real concerns about the indiscriminate use of E, both because of the repercussions on other people but also the worry about the possible psychological effects. Hell, I've even had a letter published in the Village Voice discussing the subject.

At the same time, I have enormous respect for MDMA. In the hands of a trained therapist it can work miracles. I'm appalled by the fact that it isn't available for medical use when things like morphine are perfectly legal. When I think of the numbers of people who could be helped by MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, and then realize that they are not going to get helped due to political reasons, it frustrates me enormously. There is such potential in that drug and we're never going to see it used in the U.S.

The fact that the FDA is approving studies doesn't give me any hope. They approved studies on marijuana too and found it to be medically beneficial, yet do you see medical marijuana available in the U.S.? No. The government simply ignores any studies that go against the War on (some) Drugs propaganda.

I come from California and we approved medicinal marijuana there a number of years ago. The people of California voted and said, "Yes, we want medicinal marijuana." Then the federal government stepped in and said, "We don't give a crap what you want, there is to be no medical marijuana." And periodically now there are blitzes where the DEA boys come in and close down clinics and prosecute people.

It makes me ill with rage, honestly. There are such parallels between this issue and what I do in the birth industry. I see women walking into hospitals to have babies and I know that they are going to be manipulated, violated, and they'll leave that hospital with a 1 in 4 chance they'll have birthed their baby through an abdominal wound. A woman's chances of dying are at least 16 times higher when she gives birth in the hospital, and neonatal mortality rises significantly as well. But when a baby dies or mother dies in a hospital, nobody bats an eye. Midwives all over the United States and Canada are prosecuted when a baby dies during a homebirth, even though midwife-assisted-childbirth deaths are extremely rare when compared to OB-assisted hospital statistics.

Medical care in North America isn't about medicine, it's about politics.

DJ Tranzit

oh.. isn't that the truth..

healthcare is an absolute farce in most cases as far as i'm concerned..

i know there is most likely a lot of stuff here i am not seeing, but i'll post the comments, and hopefully somebody can correct me if i'm wrong..

keep in mind, i live in ajax, and the closest hospital to me is all of a 5 minute walk... next to that, i'm looking at whitby, which isn't the greatest, or scarborough centenary.

when i fractured my wrist and caused damage to my muscles/tendons in it, i went to ajax. They told that it was just sprained, and to go home... this is after waiting 2 hours in the emergency room, with one other person... 2 HOURS, 1 PERSON.. people were walking around everywhere... i saw next to no patients but doctors in swarms having extended coffee breaks at 1am... none the less, i asked him...
"are you sure?... this seriously doesn't feel like a sprain"..
"no.. it's a sprain. there isn't anything we can do... go home now"
i went home.. couldn't sleep worth shit, so i went back at 5am, only we took the trip to scarborough
20 mins in the waiting room, and it was a fair lineup.. within 1.5 hours i was casted and had left the hospital.. this was fairly quick.. i know.. BUT, they took one look at it, and boom, sent me to the fracture clinic, where i just sat down and got casted... no waiting for doctors.. there was one there just doing everyone as they came in.. like an assembly line.. it was perfect



now.. story 2...
we go to wake up my girlfriend's daughter one mourning... her hand is twice it's regular size (she's approx 3.5 years old now). Ever see the nutty professor? when his hands balloon out? that's what it looked like... it was really bad looking... she was pale, and it hurt for us to put slight pressure on it..

we rushed her to emergency in ajax (seeing as whitby was closed!), and they got her into a room immediately. ok.... that's fine.. but they didn't really look at her all that quick.. ends up it's an allergic reaction.. (or so we are told, and have to assume). she ends up in child care, and is there 2 nights in a row i think... maybe 3... we stay by her side in shifts night and day as we trade off taking days off work, and trying to rest... it's a nightmare to say the least...

finally the doctor looks at her... he says it's a reaction of some sort... well DUH?!? fuck.. i could have said that dipshit... what is it a reaction to? let's do some tests.. make some statements..

he wouldn't do tests, wouldn't tell us what it could be.. nothing.. we told him outright she'd been playing in the garden and there was a possibility it could be either a bee, spider, mosquito, or ant that bit her, but it shouldn't make such a big swelling.... still.. no tests.

sure enough, 3-4 weeks later, it happens again!!! she's back in the hospital with the same thing... still no tests.. they give her some medicine to ease the swelling..

problem here... lazy doctors... they don't want to get to the root of the problem, just mask it.. they kept her a minimum of 2 nights... they spent enough money on that shit.. why not do some tests and possibly stop the chance of her coming back for a repeat episode..

health care is just fucked.. but at least we're not the states and have to pay for a majority of it..

oOFuzzEOo

^^^I suggest going to a different hospital.

I'm not very informed on the health care situation, other than what I hear on the news. And that isn't much as I don't really watch it. So there isn't anything I can input into this discussion.

Mrs Frolic - what you posted was very interesting. Very saddening as well, but I suppose that MDMA was going to be made illegal at one point. It's too bad that it happened the way it did. Chances are, it will never be looked at again for medicinal uses. At least not in the near future.